maxwelhse Posted April 14, 2003 Report Share Posted April 14, 2003 Ummm.. It also has a BUNCH to do with the weight of the cone and voice coil. Which is why large speakers tend to exhibit "sloppy" behavior. No matter what box any speaker is in, the one with the least mass to move will be the most accurate. And.. Speakers with more cone area have to move more air to operate, which also slows them down. More mass + more air resistance = less speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJ Posted April 14, 2003 Report Share Posted April 14, 2003 Adire Audio’s article explaining why larger drivers don’t lack quality over smaller drivers http://www.adireaudio.com/tech_papers/woofer_speed.htm --12's or 15's—Nice debate over the transient response of larger woofers http://www.termpro.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimat...c;f=13;t=001069 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxwelhse Posted April 15, 2003 Report Share Posted April 15, 2003 Umm.. They're treating mass as a constant with respect to time, so they just eliminate it from their equation? Yeah sure the mass isn't changing, so what? F=ma means just that. The more mass you have, the more acceleration you need to move that mass with the same force as a lighter mass. It doesn't matter if you're moving that object for 1 second or 100 seconds, it still takes X newtons to do it. That's why he's treating it as a constant, which it is considering a given speaker, but it is not a constant when considering EVERY speaker. What they SHOULD be saying is that there is 2 things that make a driver respond better, a lower mass, or a higher rate of acceleration achieved through greater inductance. He also neglects to mention is that MOST 10", 12", and 15" subwoofers share the same voice coil size (thus sharing the same inductance). So, according to him, all three of those speakers should sound exactly the same, since mass and air resistance play no part in frequency response. Also... Why is it that a tweeter has a VERY high frequency response but has a very LOW inductance? Because it has a very LOW mass and much less air resistance. I'm not a physicist, but I say the guy is wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJ Posted April 15, 2003 Report Share Posted April 15, 2003 "the guy" or Dan Wiggins, CEO of adire audio, is easlily one of the most knowedgible people when it comes to anything relating to audio. he makes some of the finest car/ home audio components on the market. i highly doubt he is wrong :. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxwelhse Posted April 15, 2003 Report Share Posted April 15, 2003 Well Dude, either he's wrong or Sir Issac Newton is wrong. I'll stand next to Newton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JessN16 Posted May 21, 2003 Report Share Posted May 21, 2003 Woofer response is mostly a factor of two things -- excursion and power control. Take two woofers powered equally. The woofer with the smaller excursion will offer "tighter" and more precise response, because the woofer cone doesn't have to move as much. But the woofer with more excursion will move more air and will make the bigger boom. To get a speaker with bigger boom, you need more excursion...but if you intend to control it and reduce "sloppiness," you need a quality voice coil with the power and ability to control it. Think of it as a Starion racing against a Kenworth T600. The Kenworth has by far more power, but it also has much, MUCH more "excursion," and is thus difficult to control. If you want to see this put into practice, grab a look at Eclipse's new 15- and 18-inch subwoofers. The speaker surround is so thick and wide, the 18 looks like an 8- or 10-inch sub in its pictures. When stood up on its magnet, the speaker is as tall as a moderately sized dog. That's because it has heaven's own voice coil structure for the purpose of controlling a whopping 4 inches of cone excursion. Someone mentioned something about the box; yes, that is important, but for the system's raw potential, you need to know the speaker's excursion limits and its control capabilities. Jess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJ Posted May 21, 2003 Report Share Posted May 21, 2003 a 15 doesnt have to excurt as much as a 10 to get equal SPL, therefore the 15 will have less distortion and more controll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JessN16 Posted May 21, 2003 Report Share Posted May 21, 2003 Again, depends on the voice coil. All things being equal, yes, a 15 will outperform a 10 in the area you're talking about. But I can take a well-coiled 10, say from Audiomobile or one of the high-end JL Audio pieces, and run circles around a mid-level 15. But as most any experienced installer will tell you, if you have unlimited financial resources, power and space, there's no reason you shouldn't keep going up in woofer cone size if you can. Jess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJ Posted May 21, 2003 Report Share Posted May 21, 2003 yeah the audiomobile mass's an evo-r are pretty nice subs. and id rather have a 10" evo-r than JL 15w0. in case you like to hear about lesser known companies, check out Resonant Engineering, Adire Audio, and Elemental Designs. the RE XXX, adire Brahma, and ED A can hang right up there with a JL W7 and in some areas even pass up the JL. and all this at a fraction of the cost of a W7. customer service is outstanding with these companies also because you always get to tlak directly to the people that actually know what they are talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustPaus_88TSi Posted May 21, 2003 Report Share Posted May 21, 2003 Not to mention that all the good manufacturers started in the home theater market. Like DD(digital designs) and also the Adire Audio's that were previously mentioned. And talk about weird surrounds. Look at the MTX RFL. Weird, to say the least. About all this "10 hits crisper, 12's sound lower" blah blah blah... EVERY COMPANY IS DIFFERENT, YOU HAVE TO FIND THE HAPPY MEDIUM IN ORDER TO ACHIEVE HARMONIC BALANCE. THE MANUFACTURER IS THE ONLY ONE WHO CAN TELL YOU WHAT'S BEST, USING THEIR EQUIPTMENT. Look at Beyond Audio. DB Don is the absolute shiznit. He put one of his 10's into another competitor's box for a 15 and BLEW IT AWAY. Without a good proper box design. Just imagine what would happen with the right spec'd box. About the 10's and 12's, if you want punchy bass, AND low frequency bass, then get a big( 12/15/18/21 ) subwoofer in the back in a big a** ported box, tuned low. That'll give you all the low's to make your filling's fall out. Then get some 8's for up front or where ever you want to put them. Ever heard of " MID BASS". SUBWOOFERS ARE FOR JUST THAT "SUB SONIC FREQUENCIES" PUNCHY BASS COMES FROM " MID BASS" Case closed. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JessN16 Posted May 22, 2003 Report Share Posted May 22, 2003 Lowest I've ever taken two 12s was around the 21 hZ level -- the original Kicker C12s in a band-pass box, woofers facing each other. The box was made of 3/4 inch birch plywood. I'm running one JL 12 in my Starion right now, because I wanted to keep my stock look in the back and I absolutely require the spare tire to be left in the car. I haven't thought about upgrading much at this time (I know my next upgrades will be in soundfield processing but I don't know what), but if I were to locate a pair of 8s somewhere in the car for lower midbass, I'd either have to do some serious cutting or lose the back seat. Is there anyone here from California who can tell me if G&S Designs are still in business? Jess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustPaus_88TSi Posted May 22, 2003 Report Share Posted May 22, 2003 21Hz. Did you use a sine sweep by chance? Mid bass speakers(6.5's and 8's) need very little to almost no air space in most occasions. I had my 8's in a custom made kick panel, that had a circle cut out of it in the bottom of the "kick". Thus venting somewhat through the car's carpet. Allowing a smaller box(kick panel) design to be utilized. I was pushing 275 watts to each 8 and the sound was supremely punchy. Like I tell my friends all the time... " If I had money, i'd be dangerous." John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JessN16 Posted May 22, 2003 Report Share Posted May 22, 2003 I had a CD with an a track on it I knew had a spike of 25 Hz information on it, and I could hear undertones to that note when it hit. We did a sine sweep but honestly, that was in 1995 and I don't remember what it turned up. That's why I said "around the 21 Hz level." (G) It's an educated guess, really. Testing at that level is interesting. Different people's hearing cuts off at different places along the Hz curve. I've had people in my car who couldn't hear that note and I've had others that could hear information I couldn't hear. I used to crack up at some of the kids who would come in the shop and swear they could hear a 10Hz note. Jess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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