TPS/ISC Reset 88 TSI

[SCillini]

The air canister is actually a KN cone filter. When I got the car, the PO had done away with the original canister for the aftermarket setup. I have debated getting an actual canister, but haven't looked so far. It seems the filter seals well to the back plate that the AFS mounts to with the three clips.

 

I routed/plugged all of the vacuum lines tonight, found what I think is the bolt plug on the intake right at the 3/4 cylinder junction you were referring to for the AT transmission. It was loose and not screwed in all the way. I tightened it down for now. I also disconnected the booster hose at the intake and blocked that off with a rubber cap. I removed the EGR valve and noticed it was full of fuel and very carboned up. I will take it to work and see about getting that cleaned up and tested. If all else fails, I can put a sheet metal gasket in place that just blocks off the EGR completely. Emissions isn't an issue around here in rural 'murica. [i work at a small engine repair shop]. I also noticed several of the vacuum lines are not sealing quite tightly enough, so I will most likely be replacing those with fresh lines. I will update when I get things cleaned and reinstalled.

[SCillini]

OK, verified ALL PORTS are closed off, EGR is reinstalled, and I verified that it actually works [vacuum tested] yet is disconnected. Restarted car, ran a bit smoother, but still shut off.

 

Is there a way to test the injector signal WHILE the car is attempting to run?

[BandY]

Just out of curiosity, is yours doing the same thing as mine? Hook a volt meter to the battery, and see if it goes haywire, while the engine runs. Our symptoms are practically identical, but my volts reading is off the hook. Edited January 31, 2015 by BandY

[SCillini]

Not to my knowledge. The volt meter in the car registers 14 volts approx and doesn't waver. I can check though. I haven't specifically done what you describe. If nothing else it will check something else off the list.

[SCillini]

BandY, my voltage is solid at the battery. Additionally, I have no power parasite draining the battery at all.

 

This afternoon I had some help from a friend who gave a fresh pair of eyes and a second set of hands to look at the car.

 

T.H.E. C.A.R. N.O.W. R.U.N.S. !!!!!

 

It ran long enough for the coolant to get hot for the first time since I have had it. The issue we found is with the INJECTORS or an injector. First we swapped the injector connectors and the car ran longer but still stalled. We then swapped the leads on the injectors so the primary connector was running the secondary injector [the blue/green one] and the car ran on its own but still needed fine tuning. When we put the primary connector on the primary injector, the car died again as before. This was repeatable so much so we were able to tune the base timing a bit with the secondary injector in play and without the primary injector active.

 

We rotated the injectors to get a better view of the stamped code, etc to be proof positive of what they were and there are some numbers I would like for someone to verify since the injector in question is the M coded one. MikeC had made the comment earlier in this thread about some people upgrading the primary injector from the 580 to the 850 and this was a bad bad bad thing.

 

This is a pic of the M coded primary injector and it had the numbers 852 stamped beside it. IS this the size of the injector??? IF SO then the problem lies in the fact the injector is dumping too much fuel and the ECU is not accounting for it; plus it would logically explain WHY I was able to open the throttle for more air and the car would continue to run. IF NOT then the injector itself must be bad and I need to replace it. http://s284.photobuc...maryDS.jpg.html

 

Here's the secondary injector stampings: http://s284.photobuc...daryPS.jpg.html

 

Additionally, if this is verified to be the larger sized injector, would they have done this as part of the 1G Talon turbo upgrade? Right now I have the starquest AFS installed and verified working good.

 

So at this point I would start with finding a 580 injector and seeing how that works. . .

[mikec]

The "wrong" black injector (from 84-86 cars and other Mitsu engined cars) that folks sometimes install in 87-later cars as a primary flows mid-way between the correct black injector and the secondary injector. Something like 850 for the 84-86 black injectors, 580 for the correct 87-later black injector, and 980 to 1080 for the 87-later blue/green secondary injector. So if you can get your car running on just the secondary, even though it flows almost twice what the ECU expects, a "wrong" black injector would actually be less over-rich so the engine ought to be able to run with that as well. Sounds like your primary is just flat-out bad. Pop it out of the car, get a cheapie non-alkaline 9 volt "transistor radio battery" (the common small rectangular ones), and a can of spray carb cleaner. Prop up the injector in a vise or pliers or something so you're not holding it in your hand. Use the 9 volt battery to open the injector and spray carb cleaner into the top end - watch for splashing and whatnot - keep your face/eyes projected. I stick the carb cleaner straw into the injector and wrap a shop rag around them. See if the injector lets the carb cleaner spray through the injection tip or not when the battery voltage is applied. Don't use a recharable battery, a car/motorcycle battery, battery charger, etc - those can deliver a lot more current (amps) than a dinky 9 volt battery and could overload the injector. The 9 volt battery is too whimpy to actually burn out the injector wire coil; recharable batteries & car/motorcycle batteries can deliver many many amps and will fry the injector instantly.

 

Look at the spray tip of your primary and compare the opening size to the secondary. It should be visibly smaller - about half the diameter. If it looks just a little smaller, or if the tip doesn't come to the same shape point, it might have been altered by somebody. And was probably trashed. Normally the numbers after the "L" code are unimportant - they're probably a manfacturing lot code or something like that, not the flow rate.

 

mike c.

[SCillini]

Removed the injectors and inspected. Looked factory. When I connected the 9v battery there was an audible click and the carb cleaner sprayed nice and wide and even in a conical pattern. I did this with both injectors just to clean them out good. I also ohmed them again just to be sure and they both ohmed out to 2.5 ohms.

 

Here's a visual: http://s284.photobucket.com/user/desktopjockey/media/conquest%20tsi/20150131_202730.jpg.html

 

I also checked the wiriing to the injectors and found at some point the PO had replaced the injector pigtails. http://s284.photobucket.com/user/desktopjockey/media/conquest%20tsi/20150131_204955.jpg.html

 

One thing i noticed on the primary pigtail was an addition of a piece of wire not quite as large as the original wire. Could this be messing with the resistance in that pigtail for the primary injector? I have some solder seal connectors which are water proof and solder the wires together instead of just providing a mechanical connection. Opinion?

[SCillini]

Well, I can officially say this starquest is running on its own and idled down as it should Fine tuning is necessary, but I have established a running, working engine. It has a bit of a lope, but I am not sure if that is cam or something else. BIG thing is this car is running on its own now.

 

I can only surmise that running carb cleaner throough the injectors it cleaned out whatever gunk was in there.

 

Mike C - Thanks for hanging in there with me on this. Hopefully I will have the opportunity to pay it forward or back to you in some way.

[BandY]

I've found that the engine is dying from something other than the fuel pump losing power. With 12v+ to the test port, the fuel pump keeps running, yet at idle, it runs great for usually about five seconds Edited February 2, 2015 by BandY

[SCillini]

BandY - Have you done the injector test that Mike C told me above? I too could get the pump to run fine and hold pressure and there were no leaks at the injector nozzles. Only thing I did after that was pull the injectors, excite with the 9V transistor battery as he described and shot carb cleaner through the injector from the top to verify the spray cone.

 

I did that, reinstalled my injectors and the car ran without a hitch. could even rev it up. I cant do that much because I have a coolant leak, and the BOV isn't installed and all the vacuum hasn't been reconnected so I didn't want to run it long. I can only logically deduce that deposits or gum had been restricting the pintle movement. In your case, could be something got past the filter and into the injector.

 

One reason I am suggesting this first is that I went the other route with the TPS reset, and testing every sensor imaginable and they all testing good. Just to come down to having a restricted injector; totally mechanical. At least you could eliminate that as a possibility.

[BandY]

Once again, I had to be reminded that the procedure in the FSM for the 1986 Plymouth Conquest has SOMETHING wrong with it. I've done it over and over, through about 13 years, and it's never/rarely successful. FRUSTRATING. Finally found the link for the BEST procedure, and it worked for me today, the very first time. This is it:

 

The following procedure must be followed to the letter for best results.

01 - Engine must be at operating temp.

02 - After engine is warmed-up, turn it off.

03 - Turn key to the ignition on position.

04 - Connect digital voltmeter to #2 and #3 terminals on TPS sensor.

05 - Turn TPS all the way counterclockwise and snug bolts.

06 - Disconnect ISC motor connector next to firewall and wait 10 seconds.

07 - Turn TPS clockwise slowly to set voltage.

08 - Set voltage to 0.48 - 0.52 (optimal = 0.50).

09 - Tighten TPS bolts without changing setting achieved in step #08.

10 - Depress accelerator fully - meter will show up to 5.0V. This value is directly affected by the setting obtained in step #08.

11 - Loosen accelerator cable.

12 - Start engine.

13 - Set idle speed to 750 RPM's.

14 - Shut off engine.

15 - Tighten accelerator cable - 1mm free play.

16 - Plug ISC motor connector.

17 - Turn ignition to the on position for 10 seconds.

18 - Shut ignition off.

19 - Start engine.

20 - Idle will go up slightly (100 - 150 RPM's - this is normal).

21 - ISC and TPS are now set.

Note: Be aware that the ignition is turned on in step #03 and is kept "on", until step #14.

 

http://www.starquest... (If you want the long description)

Edited February 12, 2015 by BandY

[BandY]

The reason I posted that is because I know how annoyed I can get, when results/cures aren't posted.

[SCillini]

BandY - I am all with you on how irritating it is when someone has a problem and disappears when a suggestion or assistance is posted and not followed up with. Thats why I've gone through this thread myself and added as much info as possible. I too had found those instructions however my issue was with step 1. The car wouldn't run at all over a second or two therefore I could not achieve normal operating temperature. That made everything else invalid.

 

Mike C had instructed me to use a resistor on the harness plug for the coolant temp sensor to "trick" the ECU into thinking the car was at operating temp. For $1.95 for a pack of 5 resistors at Radio Shack I got past step one and I was able to do the rest of the procedure.

 

His guidance got me over that hill. Come to find out it was clogged injectors and bad fuel. I am in the middle of cleaning out the fuel tank and getting fresh fuel in it.

[BandY]

Yeah, I actually bought 50 of those resistors on eBay for 99 cents. One, I soldered to two male spade connectors, so it will plug right into the female connector. Once I learned that apparently my CTS is working fine, I don't use the resistor anymore. Although, I do keep it in my car, in case of a CTS issue.

 

I really need to figure out what is causing it to run super rich. I've yet to remove and clean the injectors, like you described, mostly because of the weather. Whenever I drive it, I REALLY need to baby it, in order for it to not fall flat on its face. Either that, or I need to rev the heck out of it, and use about 20k miles of clutch, and I HATE to do that. Sometimes that won't even work successfully, because of how rich the ECU is making it run. I can clearly hear the clicking in the passenger foot side, but I'm fairly sure it's the fuel pump relay and not the ECU. Possibly the ECU is telling the relay to click back and forth? What in the world would cause this? Is it going in and out of limp mode? Usually, the ISC/TPS reset proves to be successful, but there have been a few times that it searches for an idle.

[SCillini]

The fuel relay or ECI controller is actually two relays in one, located above the ECU. The way the relay works, when the ignition is turned on, the first relay receives and sends voltage to the fuel pump to run. When the car is started, the ECU gets the impulse signal from the engine stating that its running. The ECI controller at that time receives voltage from the ECU and switches from the initial relay to the second relay which keeps the pump running. I don't see a way the relays could switch back and forth. As long as the ECU sees an impulse signal from the engine, it keeps that second ECI controller relay open to keep the fuel pump on. In the event of losing that signal - say in a crash - the ECU would stop the voltage to the ECI controller and fuel would be cut off at the tank.

 

I've been told multiple repeated times from guys here that the ECUs in the 88-89 starions are bricks and rarely go bad. The ECI controller either works or it doesn't, and seems to be about as solid. Since you are getting fuel, and can run the car even poorly, I would think they both are working OK, at least in the fuel delivery area.

 

Its easy to do the bench test Mike C was talking about and I had it done within a few minutes. At least if you do that you can "see" the spray cone and see if its dripping liquid or staying open after the injector loses voltage. Of course with the carb cleaner, you'll clean out most any chemical issues promptly. You can also inspect the nose of the injector for any damage. You can also test the resistance of the injector with a multimeter - I believe the spec is 2.0 to 3.0 Ohms. Anything other than that and I would suspect the injector. These are at least mechanical tests that wouldn't be found by any other means than hands on inspection.

 

Id get the injector test out of the way first and go from there. Since the car is still able to get on the road - even roughly - I imagine most everything else would be ok.

 

If the injectors check out okay, my next suspicion would be the AFS. Have you done the turbo talon 1G upgrade or anything?

 

Have you done any mods or anything else to the vehicle just prior to experiencing the issue?

 

In my case, the fuel in the tank was worse than I suspected, but I only had the vehicle since November. The same symptoms re emerged the next time I started it. I drained the tank and sure enough the fuel was a caramel color and smelled of varnish. I had put a couple gallons of fresh fuel in the tank testing the fuel gauge so that gave the fuel enough oomph to ignite albeit poorly. I don't think I could light it with a blow torch now.

 

I am borrowing a bore scope to look in the tank for rust and debris. I hope I don't have to pull the tank.

 

Let me know how it goes.

[BandY]

Yes, I've already swapped the relay and the ECU with the ones from my other '86. Made no difference, so I assume it's something other than those. I need to do the injector flush. Possibly tomorrow, although it's gonna be pretty cold, so maybe Saturday.

As far as the AFS, I've swapped that with the other one, also. No change. Fairly sure that the AFS is at the air filter cannister? I swapped the entire thing. Also, there's a sensor in the OVCP, and I've swapped that, also. No change. The injectors are from the other '86, and they seemed to be fine in the other car. Admittedly, I had a fuel tank and pump problem, at first. Took the fuel pump from the other car, which I had replaced about a year earlier. In the tank was a disaster, from sitting, so I removed tanks from both cars, and used the clean one in this car. While doing that, I removed the under hood filter, and flushed it out in reverse, with carb cleaner. I get more than enough fuel flow, when I timed how long it takes to fill a gallon container. Also, I've run cleaners in the fuel, quite frequently. Two different types, and one is Sea Foam brand. The other is B-12 Chemtool.

Interested in knowing more about the AFS, although it doesn't seem to be the problem (if it's actually the one that plugs in on top of the air cleaner lid).

[SCillini]

So I understand, we are working on an 86 and not an 87-89 right? I have read on here that 86's are unique animals from other years.

 

The AFS is the air flow sensor located in the intake canister. Its quite important to making the car run. Without it, the car will run very poorly or not at all. There isn't much as far as bench testing on those.

 

Mine is an 88, and that is what I am basing my info off of. The injector flush should be ok either way. I have heard but not experienced some chemicals can cause issues with injectors, SeaFoam and B-12 both are familiar to me and I have used them before without issue.

 

Lets see what you get with the injector flush, and go from there. One step at a time when weather permits.

[BandY]

Yes, my car is an '86. Two of them, identical. I'm hoping I hear from you, or someone, fairly soon. Either I found out something very important, even vital, or else I'm doing something wrong. As far as the parts on the car being original, such as the TPS, I have no idea, because the previous owner, or one of them, rebuilt the engine, and I'm not sure what was messed with. Anyhow, I put my voltmeter on the TPS, and could not get a correct reading in any way. When I put the meter on the terminals (the ones that give me a positive reading), I get 5.00 volts. The only way to get it down to .50 volts is if I pull on the accelerator cable quite a ways. So, I took the two 7mm bolts off, and examined the reading again. Let me first point out that in the FSM, checking the TPS has a picture, and it shows the wires of the TPS facing downwards. Well, mine are facing up. If I turn it over, the plastic arm inside the TPS doesn't line up with the plastic arm coming out of the throttle body. Something seems entirely off. Like 180 out, or possible 60 degrees off. Either way, there was no way I could get a reading anywhere close to .48 volts or .50 volts, as the instructions say to do,

Can I get some clarification, please? Thanks a ton!!

Edited February 13, 2015 by BandY

[mikec]

Sounds like a TPS from a different vehicle. Many Hyundai cars used Mitsu engines and had similar sensors. Holding your TPS in your hand:

* Orient it such that the little plastic arm lines up with the yellowish plastic arm on the throttle body - they have to mesh for anything to function. Hold the TPS so the screw holes match the throttle body too - as if you were about to install it.

* Move the throttle cable as if you'd mashed the pedal - see how the throttle body yellow arm moves.

* Manually move your TPS arm in that same manner and make sure it freely moves in that direction just as far as the throttle body's yellow arm - that it doesn't hit an internal stop or anything. If it won't move as far, that TPS is not going to work on your car... unless you can get the plastic arm off the TPS and flip it 180 degrees. I think the shaft is "D" shaped to prevent screw-ups like you're describing.

 

Turn the ignition key ON (don't start the engine). While holding the TPS lined up with the throttle body as if you were about to install it, check the output voltage relative to the battery "-" post (i.e. ground) instead of relative to one of the other two TPS wires. This way you know you've got the voltmeter connected properly. The output voltage should be low - close to that target 0.5 volts... rotate the TPS lever again just like it would be moved when mashing the gas... the voltage should rise to somewhere above 3 volts. If you can get this behavior, the TPS should function on the vehicle. If the voltage starts high and DROPS as you simulate mashing the gas then it's probable a previous owner got the +5 volt "sensor power" wire and the "sensor ground" wires reversed on the TPS when he/she converted it from Hyundai to StarQuest wiring.

 

Just re-read your post... it really does sound like somebody goofed the wiring when swapping connectors on a "compatible" TPS. Look at the wiring diagram in your FSM. And look at the wire colors going into the wiring harness connector that the TPS plugs into - those are the wire colors described in the factory service manual. The wire colors from the actual TPS to its own connector can be anything - ignore them. Look at the two connectors and determine which wire of your TPS assembly "connects" to the green+red and green+black wires in the wiring harness. With the TPS totally unplugged, hook your test meter set to OHMS (resistance) mode to those two wires. You should see a CONSTANT resistance of 3000 to 5000 ohms (if I remember correctly...) regardless of how you rotate the little lever arm. If the resistance varies:

* you've proven the wiring is messed up

* locate which TPS wires have the constant resistance and get ready to move those to the green+red and green+black mating pins on the connector.

* which wire goes to green+red and which goes to green+black? Use the ohmmeter again: connect either ohmmeter wire to the 3rd wire which should be the output wire of the TPS (and should line up with the green+white wire in the harness connector). Set the TPS to the "idle throttle" position where you'd expect 0.50 volts. Now use the other ohmmeter wire to probe the two remaining TPS wires, one by one, and find which one gives you much less resistance with the TPS in the idle position. Connect that TPS wire to the pin that mates with green+black harness wire.

 

If you got the proper CONSTANT resistance when you did the test in the preceeding paragraph, then at least the TPS input wires are being used as input wires - i.e. the TPS output wire does in fact go to the proper green+white wire in the harness. We just need to verify if the TPS input wires going to the correct green+red and green+black wires or determine if they're reversed:

* Use the ohmmeter again: connect either ohmmeter wire to the TPS output wire (and should line up with the green+white wire in the harness connector). Set the TPS to the "idle throttle" position where you'd expect 0.5 volts. Now use the other ohmmeter wire to probe the two remaining TPS wires, one by one, and find which one gives you much less resistance with the TPS in the idle position. That should be the one that lines up with the harness green+black wire. If it lines up with green+red... your TPS inputs are backwards. Swap those two wires in the connector!

 

By the way, my 88 manuals show the TPS wires pointing upwards. That's how my car is too with the factory TPS installed.

 

mike c.