nickb Posted February 15, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 That would be from the mechine shop that i had the block resurfaced, if you are talking about the line that are in the right side of pic that go from left to right on the block. I had that done long time ago, but a burst of 20+ psi from the turbo for a couple of sec i would think make the HG pop, but dunno. So the block bing resurfaced should look completly smooth I take it. Is there anything i can do with out having to take the block back to mechine shop, I max on boost min 7psi max to 12psi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indiana Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 I was afraid of that. Where you live? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickb Posted February 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 I live in sacramento CA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indiana Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 (edited) That machine shop you used really screwed you. That's an awful surface they put on that deck it won't ever make a seal that will last because its way too rough. It would have been just as smooth if you pulled it behind a truck on the sidewalk. The honing marks in the cylinders even after being ran have hardly any visible crosshatch pattern only a little more than horizontal and that is one reason you are burning so much oil. The rings swipe up and down the cylinder walls and the only oil that remains is in those honing marks and yours lets 100s of times more oil lay in those grooves because they aren't in a proper criss cross pattern. That oil is burnt when there is combustion, it adds to what is laying on the piston dish and effects air/fuel ratio and the rings don't seal as well either making for more blowby. I'd take the pistons out and see what they look like. Another shop can surface it again and rehone it. At minimum that needs the deck cut again. It didn't even mash flat around the fire ring he marks from the out of adjust cutter are so angled. The deck is to be slick enough so the gasket moves on it, its not supposed to stick to it ever. A new surface you should nearly be able to see a reflection in. The cylinder head must have a higher quality finish because the aluminum heats up so quick and the iron doesn't and when the surfaces are rough it just chews the gasket up and what sealant is there is for the oil and coolant its not for compression. Only the fire ring around the top of the cylinder holds in the power made from combustion. All that coating from the gasket is stuck in those cutter marks from whatever out of adjustment busted POS surfacer they used. It wouldn't have lasted anyway. When you said the WG actuator hose blew off it was about ready to blow anyway. When you remove the headgasket and its stuck to either surface that's never a good thing. Edited February 16, 2012 by Indiana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickb Posted February 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2012 ahh okay, There are a couple of shops left around here or I might just save up and send it to DAD... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indiana Posted February 17, 2012 Report Share Posted February 17, 2012 PM Metricman, he'll tell you where to take it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickb Posted February 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2012 K PM sent to metric-man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metric-man Posted February 17, 2012 Report Share Posted February 17, 2012 I'm about 400 miles south of SAC... I don't see the pic you're reffering to about the block's deck, maybe the host is doing maintenance.I've seen decks that have been resurfaced that have a pattern, they may just look like that because sometimes it takes more than one pass to clean it up and it will look like ridges when it actually is not.but then again I haven't seen the picture. Usually if you can find a machine shop that is familiar or speciallizes in FORDs or Mazdas you won't have much trouble Cascar http://www.cascarmachineshop.com/ looks like a place to start I've read a couple reviews about them, but it looks like you have quite a few gearheads in Sacramento, you shouldn't have any problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indiana Posted February 17, 2012 Report Share Posted February 17, 2012 Why did you delete all the picture links? If you looked at it close up it looked like a case of hacksaw blades, all the cuts were angled. It was a front to back cut not circular and I'd say they used the wrong type of machine. If it were a cast iron head and not a turbo engine it may have lasted. You need to make sure you are looking at an AUTOMOTIVE machine shop not just any machine shop. There's 39 automotive machine shops listed in your yellowpages for Sacramento and I would think there's 1000s and 1000s of people out there using these shops otherwise they wouldn't be there. If you don't know the right questions to ask they might not ask you questions and do what is minimal. If you just dropped it off and said I need these pistons installed and cut the deck you aren't going to get much but they should ask you questions too. He mentioned Mazda meaning some place that was used to doing aluminum blocks and heads, also Subarus. Drive down where people hang out and ask the people that appear to have the nice built engines where they had their work done then ask them questions and see if they know what they're talking about. How quick they can do it is another question to ask. When they see what was done and you tell them its for an engine with an aluminum head and its a turbo application they should know immediately and tell you that no, that wouldn't work. Tell them you are going to use a gasket that is metal (whether you are or not) and they won't use that type of machine on it because the surface will not be adequate. Metal gaskets require a much smoother surface so do mismatched metals -iron and aluminum. That cylinder honing, looks like they just stuck that dingleberry hone in there and held it down until it chewed out enough metal. It needs done on an automatic honing machine and that will even the bore out and make the proper cross hatch pattern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickb Posted February 18, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2012 I'm about 400 miles south of SAC... I don't see the pic you're reffering to about the block's deck, maybe the host is doing maintenance.I've seen decks that have been resurfaced that have a pattern, they may just look like that because sometimes it takes more than one pass to clean it up and it will look like ridges when it actually is not.but then again I haven't seen the picture. Usually if you can find a machine shop that is familiar or speciallizes in FORDs or Mazdas you won't have much trouble Cascar http://www.cascarmachineshop.com/ looks like a place to start I've read a couple reviews about them, but it looks like you have quite a few gearheads in Sacramento, you shouldn't have any problems. That link you sent Is who did the work to the block, i will repost the pic, I had them on a server and change the OS I forgot about the pics The block surface is smooth you can berly feel the riges the only plce the gasket stuck was the head, it didnt stick to the block when i removed the head i will repost the pics and some more of the head when i get back home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metric-man Posted February 18, 2012 Report Share Posted February 18, 2012 (edited) Why did you delete all the picture links? If you looked at it close up it looked like a case of hacksaw blades, all the cuts were angled. It was a front to back cut not circular and I'd say they used the wrong type of machine. If it were a cast iron head and not a turbo engine it may have lasted. You need to make sure you are looking at an AUTOMOTIVE machine shop not just any machine shop. There's 39 automotive machine shops listed in your yellowpages for Sacramento and I would think there's 1000s and 1000s of people out there using these shops otherwise they wouldn't be there. If you don't know the right questions to ask they might not ask you questions and do what is minimal. If you just dropped it off and said I need these pistons installed and cut the deck you aren't going to get much but they should ask you questions too. He mentioned Mazda meaning some place that was used to doing aluminum blocks and heads, also Subarus. Drive down where people hang out and ask the people that appear to have the nice built engines where they had their work done then ask them questions and see if they know what they're talking about. How quick they can do it is another question to ask. When they see what was done and you tell them its for an engine with an aluminum head and its a turbo application they should know immediately and tell you that no, that wouldn't work. Tell them you are going to use a gasket that is metal (whether you are or not) and they won't use that type of machine on it because the surface will not be adequate. Metal gaskets require a much smoother surface so do mismatched metals -iron and aluminum. That cylinder honing, looks like they just stuck that dingleberry hone in there and held it down until it chewed out enough metal. It needs done on an automatic honing machine and that will even the bore out and make the proper cross hatch pattern.Fords and mazda used a g54b but your right about dissimilar metals and the need for a smooth surface, the aluminum and cast iron cool at differnt rates and aluminum exspands more but cools faster, thats the theroy behind the coated head gaskets like the teflon (viton) gaskets. adheasion (sticking) is the last thing you need, a true seal yes , but adheasion no.The two surfaces need to to be able to slide or else you get a warped cylinder head.If you get a warped head then you loose the seal, you loose the seal you loose coolant you loose coolant you over heat the head, the turbo, the exhaust manifold.. etc. Edited April 22, 2012 by Metric-man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickb Posted February 19, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2012 here the pics back http://www.conquesttsi.net/car/2012-02-12%2020.05.38.jpghttp://www.conquesttsi.net/car/2012-02-12%2020.05.44.jpghttp://www.conquesttsi.net/car/2012-02-12%2020.05.52.jpghttp://www.conquesttsi.net/car/2012-02-12%2020.06.00.jpghttp://www.conquesttsi.net/car/2012-02-12%2020.06.26.jpghttp://www.conquesttsi.net/car/2012-02-12%2020.06.35.jpghttp://www.conquesttsi.net/car/2012-02-12%2020.06.39.jpghttp://www.conquesttsi.net/car/2012-02-13%2017.21.08.jpg <---this is the side that was on the headhttp://www.conquesttsi.net/car/2012-02-13%2017.21.18.jpg <---- Block Side Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metric-man Posted February 19, 2012 Report Share Posted February 19, 2012 (edited) For those pictures and what Indiana mentioned (I'm only looking at pictures and not in person)http://www.conquestt...%2020.06.35.jpgTo be it looks like #2 was sleeved and perhaps this is why Indiana saw the saw tooth marks on the ridge of the sleeve edge and it is not flush with the deck ,It could be just a ridger reamer was used hastily.http://www.conquestt...%2020.06.26.jpgWhen boring and honing a cylinder that adjoining cylinder #3 tranfered some of the heat and possibly was done in succession instead of skipping the cylinder and waiting for it to cool down, it also could be there was no deck plate used when honing because there is an absence of crosshatching on that cylinder wall. I've seen tapering of the cylinder like that before and it probably is OK as long as it is'nt too great, but I'm pretty sure it's from the boring/ honing order and no deck plate. Edited February 19, 2012 by Metric-man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indiana Posted February 19, 2012 Report Share Posted February 19, 2012 Does the head have those same lines in it? On the block, enlarge the picture and look at the pattern where the coating is left in the cutter marks, they are feathered out as the curve comes closer to the side of the block evidence that the cutter left angled depressions like a saw tooth. That's not a cylinder liner, that's where those angled cuts high edges were mashed down by the fire ring of the gasket where there's more metal folded over. If that coating was all removed and you pulled your finger nail across the deck it should chew it off like a file. If that head was done on the same machine, all that missing gasket layer must be stuck to it because it expands more and quicker and that's how it caused that to happen but he never showed the underside of the cylinder head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickb Posted February 19, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2012 (edited) here is the bottom pics of the head http://conquesttsi.n...%2010.21.16.jpghttp://conquesttsi.n...%2010.21.09.jpghttp://conquesttsi.n...%2010.20.43.jpghttp://conquesttsi.n...%2010.20.34.jpghttp://conquesttsi.n...%2010.20.14.jpg I just had the block resurfaced not the head Edited February 19, 2012 by nickb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickb Posted February 19, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2012 For those pictures and what Indiana mentioned (I'm only looking at pictures and not in person)http://www.conquestt...%2020.06.35.jpgTo be it looks like #2 was sleeved and perhaps this is why Indiana saw the saw tooth marks on the ridge of the sleeve edge and it is not flush with the deck ,It could be just a ridger reamer was used hastily.http://www.conquestt...%2020.06.35.jpgWhen boring and honing a cylinder that adjoining cylinder #3 tranfered some of the heat and possibly was done in succession instead of skipping the cylinder and waiting for it to cool down, it also could be there was no deck plate used when honing because there is an absence of crosshatching on that cylinder wall. I've seen tapering of the cylinder like that before and it probably is OK as long as it is'nt too great, but I'm pretty sure it's from the boring/ honing order and no deck plate. Number 4 was sleeved not #2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickb Posted February 19, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2012 Does the head have those same lines in it? On the block, enlarge the picture and look at the pattern where the coating is left in the cutter marks, they are feathered out as the curve comes closer to the side of the block evidence that the cutter left angled depressions like a saw tooth. That's not a cylinder liner, that's where those angled cuts high edges were mashed down by the fire ring of the gasket where there's more metal folded over. If that coating was all removed and you pulled your finger nail across the deck it should chew it off like a file. If that head was done on the same machine, all that missing gasket layer must be stuck to it because it expands more and quicker and that's how it caused that to happen but he never showed the underside of the cylinder head. the block surface is pretty smooth even after i cleand the surface, if i run my nail over it, it smooth not rough, it dose not chew up my nail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indiana Posted February 19, 2012 Report Share Posted February 19, 2012 (edited) Take some pictures across the deck surface, I think you'll see the lines. If it was properly cut there would be no high and low points and I can see the lighter edge on every cut and the deeper edge has more sealant stuck in it. It may have been put on a good machine just the guy doing it was in a hurry and the block wasn't LEVEL so as the cutter went across the surface that's what caused this. Point is there can be no such lines at all. Each scratch lets pressure and heat in and they are all across the entire surface one end to the other. You may not feel them but they are there. If they cut too much too quick that could be why the edges broke off. This isn't supposed to happen. Edited February 19, 2012 by Indiana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metric-man Posted February 19, 2012 Report Share Posted February 19, 2012 Number 4 was sleeved not #2 If this is #4 the ridge is noticiblehttp://oi41.tinypic.com/9vcoc4.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indiana Posted February 19, 2012 Report Share Posted February 19, 2012 That's the part where I think since its cut so bad the fire ring mashed or tried to mash the high side of each cut down and its deformed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickb Posted February 19, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2012 Heres a link to hi Res picture of the block surface between 2 and 3 http://www.conquesttsi.net/car2/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indiana Posted February 19, 2012 Report Share Posted February 19, 2012 Eeuwww, reminds me of corduroy pants. I especially like those two gouges you made, oops. That needs cut again its worse than I thought it was not only the cuts are bad it has pits in it from the pieces that were shaved off that rolled under the cutters taking off too much at one time and just not caring. I may have been some cutters had broken corners. Now it makes more sense, that was just a common type surfacer that has many cutters that each one must be set individually and it can take an entire day to change out those cutters and get them aligned properly and they are all mounted in a big round plate that spins and it self feeds and the block just lays there. If its a type with just one cutter its worse if it isn't flat but now it doesn't appear that type machine was used on it. Thanks for sharing. It feels smooth but its an awful surface to seal a headgasket against. http://www.conquesttsi.net/car2/2012-02-19%2012.43.56.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickb Posted February 20, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 Okay i will have it resurfaced, When i take it to another mechine shop, what do I ask for, Just tell them its for a turbo application and it needs to be smooth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indiana Posted February 20, 2012 Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 You'll need to take the timing cover and bolts cause it needs to be on and its all cut at the same time. If you can't pull the two dowels out they can. They will see the surface and should know what to do. Ask them if they will use the machine they use for aluminum cylinder heads. Tell them you are going to use a metal gasket and the head is aluminum and its a turbo motor. Ask if they have any there already done you can see. The top of each cylinder needs a chamfer on it so you can get the rings in easier and I didn't see that they bothered to do that at all. You can do that yourself or just ask them to. There's a little bevel cut at the top so its not a square edge. Was your cylinder head still good or it iin the same condition? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickb Posted February 20, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 It the same head but i never surfaced it, It very smooth once i clean the old crap off. Its a new head only about 10k on it, should i get it surfaced as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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