RPM Noise, on cranking jumping from 138-16,138

[ptracy26]

First off SStar has been hugely supported in the build of my MPI,  so no advice to check in with him. He's already on my hotline to communicate and responsive but don't want to bother him with this group ask.  I have a degree in Finance,  so not a mechanic or blah blah blah, but love this car (since I owned it with 17 miles on it) and yeah have enough blood on the engine with the mear tools I use to work on it.  So not the sharpest tool in the shed,  and its not someones responsibility to hand hold me through this. But I try,

 

I'm just curious if others experienced this,  fixed it,  and How?

 

(RPM Noise) My next work is to check wiring,  maybe re-soldered the wiring (even though they OHM out fine), then focus on the distributor which has a very slight rotation play when its locked and cap is off. The rotation is not on the locked part but as a whole unit,  is that normal? or ?

This is a 10 year project now to get it running,

1) starquest member in Jax,  rebuilt my engine and we went with a MAFT/MAP Gen II - well 3 months later the balance shafts went (stock tear down - so maybe I missed the memo)

2) Well, I dare you to move,  so full rebuild with all forged internals and custom MPI, 20 g turbo custom header, etc... etc...  Gave it to a local business called "Adrenaline Performace",  he wanted to do a K-swap on it,  I said G54B rebuild it as I wanted it as its release engine.  We'll he re-built the engine only and put that in the car but didn't nothing for 3 years on it,  so I had to pull it.

3) drop it off at another Starquest enthusist, he put it together, turbo, manifold, downpipe, new intercooler, piping, megasquirt wiring,  even the muffler was given to him in hand. in 2 months it was packaged up,  but couldn't get the MPI started.

4) now til date I fixed all the issues over two years myself (due to time and training myself and work time),  multimeter checks, soldering skills, basic 101 stuff.  Now everthing is talking back to me on the microsquirt module build / megasquirt system software tools.

It finally turned over this month,  barely,  meaning I heard an exhaust note.  More so when new plugs are put in.  But here's the issue,  gas is now drowning the intake earlier enough before spark is sent, because of this RPM noise is not firing spark soon enough because of the RPM noise(shoot,  I must have 8 tune types with now 150 logs),  and yes the main man has reviewed and followed up on all my requests/questions on this. Plus I have marching orders,  so I don't want to bother him with the basic many questions I have.

 

So I'm asking the group for their advice as why not, I was probably told what to do,  but maybe someone else needs to give me an experience or chime in to get me thinking outside of the box. Or just focus on this etc...  

Thanks in advance any support you can supply.

 

[psu_Crash]

What version of MS are you using? There is a noise filter function in MS2 extra code (and newer) that can help with that. I had the same issue with my MS years ago, only slightly different. I would see batt V spikes that corresponded to the RPM spikes. I thought for sure it was caused by bad/incorrect grounding somewhere, but never did track it down. I also installed a filter capacitor on my MS board from advice in the forums. That may have been removed after I put a filter on the power lines though ... I can't really remember. Either way that's not an option with microsquirt. 

Are you getting lost sync counts?

Seeing the cranking PW at 11.5ms max seems awful high to me too. What size injectors? Are you priming at power up? Maybe that is set too high also. 

[ptracy26]

I can only qoute my invoice ver betam:

MS2 Microsquirt module

System Description:

The replacement part consist of a megagsquirt MS2 module running the latest MSextra firmware (3.4.2)

 

Injectors are 1000cc supposedly high impedance and set this way via adjustments to the passenger side injector impedance loop blocked or off

Edited June 15, 2022 by ptracy26

[ptracy26]

found the noise filter tried it on a burn:

 

 

[BlueCuda]

I don't run a megasquirt on my conquest but my Barracuda has an MS3X system and Microsquirt on it.  

How is your ground setup?  Do not ground the ECU to the engine even if the instructions tell you to do so.  If it is grounded to the engine move its ground to the battery.  Grounding to the engine for the MS caused me some strange issues that were resolved by grounding it directly to the battery.  

Next, your battery voltage sucks if that is correct.  A fully charged battery should read 12.7 at rest, even higher if it is fresh off the charger.  Your battery at 12.0 and dropping to 7.1 during cranking is not good for electronics at all and will exaggerate any wiring issues you may have.  Use some jumper cables to connect it to another car(not running) or swap another known good battery in.

That is my .02.  Like I said I do not have a mega squirt on my conquest but I have 7 years and thousands of miles on the MS3 system in my Barracuda.  I will eventually get a system from Scott or build my own.  The megasquirt stuff is awesome and an extreme value compared to other systems.  

[psu_Crash]

I agree with the voltage. Many strange things have happened on mine when it dips below 10V. Give that a try and see if the logs look any better. Also take a trigger and a tooth log. That may show what's really going on. 

[ptracy26]

Wow,  great info.  Here's the details to challenge you. This is a brand new Battery,  I again just charged this up by a high end battery charger before these two logs were recorded.  Once charged and pulled off the charger it states 13.3, once plugged in it measures 12.3, then I hit charge btw.  Again, brand new, well 6 months old running on test cranks,  never starting but charged before the logs above were taken.  2nd new battery btw that Autozone gave me for free,  since the other one died in two years after never staring with MS.  wink wink

Good point here,  Legion moved my battery to the trunk and grounded it in the trunk to a point noted in the books as a ground point.  Seems to me passenger side rear trunk side bolt.

 

(there's just so many of Us left,  I reached out to another member 2 years ago who had this MS setup,  seems like the same issue relocating the battery.  I asked did you get is started,  he said no, just switched the engine out to a 1jz maybe cause he couldn't address it starting and basically said f it,  well that's 6k more or less,  not going there) 

I like this quote or advice!

"How is your ground setup?  Do not ground the ECU to the engine even if the instructions tell you to do so.  If it is grounded to the engine move its ground to the battery.  Grounding to the engine for the MS caused me some strange issues that were resolved by grounding it directly to the battery. "

So if the battery is in the trunk and the ECU is on the floor passenger side,  do I have an issue.  We'll I have to trace how its grounded but maybe I need to pay attention to this straight away.

 

just sharing how my setup is or designed by my wallet.

Edited June 16, 2022 by ptracy26

[ptracy26]

 "agree with the voltage. Many strange things have happened on mine when it dips below 10V. Give that a try and see if the logs look any better. Also take a trigger and a tooth log. That may show what's really going on. "

I'll check this out as well,   thanks!

[BlueCuda]

Ok so your battery is relocated, make sure it is grounded well to the body in the back, make sure there is no paint or anything on the connection.  Now go double check to make sure the engine has a good ground, the factory ground wire goes directly to the engine block and then to the chassis if I remember right so if it has been removed that is an opportunity for someone to have missed a proper engine ground.  

[BlueCuda]

7 hours ago, ptracy26 said:

f the instructions tell you to do so.  If it is grounded to the engine move its ground to the battery.  Grounding to the engine for the MS caused me some strange issues that were resolved by grounding it directly to the battery. "

So if the battery is in the trunk and the ECU is on the floor passenger side,  do I have an issue.  We'll I have to trace how its grounded but maybe I need to pay attention to this straight away.

 

just sharing how my setup is or designed by my wallet.

I don't know what your MS setup is but they usually have several small ground wires, you can bundle them all together to a point and run a single larger wire to your battery.  

I run one of these for my grounds

https://www.amazon.com/Fastronix-Black-Single-Ground-Junction/dp/B015EJR20C/ref=asc_df_B015EJR20C/?tag=&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312681740304&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=10637167458811486275&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9026561&hvtargid=pla-570056196959&ref=&adgrpid=61040318086&th=1

That way it is insulated from your cars body, and you can easily run a clean ground to the battery.  Go ahead and ground your 02 sensor controller to the same ground as your MS.  

[scott87star]

No one told me the battery was relocated, you have to have the engine block grounded directly to the battery negative with the same gauge wire as the factory, plus it has to tie in to the chassis the same way the factory did it. Everyone that relocates the battery screws that up.

[BlueCuda]

So did you get it figured out?  

[SSG_CARTER]

What’s the verdict? 
Fixed? 

[ptracy26]

The factory ground is attached to the block and back to the frame (BlackYellow) confirmed.  This is where I completed the connection from the end of the negative cable (as it was just sitting there) to the same size cable and ran that to the battery negative in the trunk (20ft).

Prime the rail and went for short crank runs and seem to still have the noise issue,  calling it that as the rpms are jumping from 185-9k still. So probably no spark and fuel just pouring in.  The car will back fire and or crank over 1x generally before the plugs get too wet (my assumption).

Reviewed the locked distributor,  inspected it,  hard wired it (still a slight rotational play when locked, but maybe that's warranted as when it gets heated up while driving that needs play for expansion??? (no play on the locked portion btw)).

I'm still going to track all the grounds and maybe attempt BlueC suggestion of getting them to one connection to the negative side. (I did buy that piece from the link but returned it for now).

I have been provided another solution and have purchased a  MK1 35 tooth trigger wheel and MK1's bracket.  Just haven't purchased the 1.3 ford sensor or connector.  have instruction on how to set it up with TSI and MS,  so with the thought of eventually getting it started/running moving to Coil Packs as well.

 

That's where I'm at,  so hot in FL.  to work on it now, bad excuse but I will keep pursing its start regardless.

 

 

Edited July 10, 2022 by ptracy26
wrong member name

[ptracy26]

On 6/15/2022 at 11:29 PM, ptracy26 said:

 "agree with the voltage. Many strange things have happened on mine when it dips below 10V. Give that a try and see if the logs look any better. Also take a trigger and a tooth log. That may show what's really going on. "

I'll check this out as well,   thanks!

Sorry, but follow in up on this,  the Trigger and a tooth log,  is that a setting in MS to do?

[Preludedude]

On 6/15/2022 at 11:00 PM, ptracy26 said:

Wow,  great info.  Here's the details to challenge you. This is a brand new Battery,  I again just charged this up by a high end battery charger before these two logs were recorded.  Once charged and pulled off the charger it states 13.3, once plugged in it measures 12.3, then I hit charge btw.  Again, brand new, well 6 months old running on test cranks,  never starting but charged before the logs above were taken.  2nd new battery btw that Autozone gave me for free,  since the other one died in two years after never staring with MS.  wink wink

Good point here,  Legion moved my battery to the trunk and grounded it in the trunk to a point noted in the books as a ground point.  Seems to me passenger side rear trunk side bolt.

 

(there's just so many of Us left,  I reached out to another member 2 years ago who had this MS setup,  seems like the same issue relocating the battery.  I asked did you get is started,  he said no, just switched the engine out to a 1jz maybe cause he couldn't address it starting and basically said f it,  well that's 6k more or less,  not going there) 

I like this quote or advice!

"How is your ground setup?  Do not ground the ECU to the engine even if the instructions tell you to do so.  If it is grounded to the engine move its ground to the battery.  Grounding to the engine for the MS caused me some strange issues that were resolved by grounding it directly to the battery. "

So if the battery is in the trunk and the ECU is on the floor passenger side,  do I have an issue.  We'll I have to trace how its grounded but maybe I need to pay attention to this straight away.

 

just sharing how my setup is or designed by my wallet.

Maybe you’re referring to me.  I gave up on the cold cranking rpm noise issue and went 1JZ.  
 

While I was removing everything for the 1JZ swap, I pulled the MS ECU from the passenger side kick panel and saw the shield wire was broken on the VR cable coming out the back of the ECU (that goes to the dizzy).  I assume this broken ground was where all my rpm spiking was coming from.  
This was a plug-n-play MS ECU from Scott. 

[ptracy26]

The VR Cable ohm fine pt 2 pt, no breaks except where it was soldered to the connectors (where it doesn't wrap around anymore).

 

I'm going this route next:

I don't know what your MS setup is but they usually have several small ground wires, you can bundle them all together to a point and run a single larger wire to your battery.  

will follow up later how its progressing.  

(still have the MK1 wheel/trigger setup as last option)

 

[ptracy26]

Folllowing up,  so I'm seeing (hearing) some progress here.  I've hardwire the Controller Box (CPU? - MS/Microtech) and just the MAP Sensor (supplied from the kit)/Signal directly to the Negative Terminal.  The car turned over more than ever and almost fired up a couple of times.  I still have some quick spikes but steady 275 rpm's which probably fires the coil more than before.

What I don't get is that the other components to the project don't have a ground,  more shielding etc...   (Distributor, o2).  The only thing left to do is to ground the 02 sensor?,   Ground the TPS?,  and Knock Box?  the same way.  I ran out of time today but open for comments.

 

 

Edited August 7, 2022 by ptracy26

[ptracy26]

So,  as another plan as its not running yet, I was advised to move to a Trigger tooth setup with a Ford pick up sensor.  For the heck of it I bought another crank pulley and Trigger tooth wheel.  So now I have to get it pinned? or welded on.  Great,  well all I'm hearing is that the engine with this change has to be re-balanced.  Pulled and rebuilt????  What's that,   1-3k?  I just put 4k into a rebuild.  Or if welded on the pulley is there no problem to run it once on (plug n play - not pulling the engine)

[BlueCuda]

https://www.motocam360.com/products/starquest/product/120-sq-crank-trigger-wheel

That setup will not need anything to be rebalanced.  Looks like you will need to fabricate a sensor mount though.  

If someone is telling you it needs rebalanced after adding a trigger wheel I would be concerned.  Especially on one of these engines lol

 

 

[ptracy26]

Well that helps,  thanks!.  I'm working with Tim on some of the MS stuff,  but haven't talked to him in months.  Also I check his website and seen this but it was "not available" in the summer time.  I even checked Ebay this morning and 1 mk1 trigger wheel and Ford Mounting bracket for sale still. I have both of those currently. 

Went ahead and purchased this new crankpulley/tooth setup from MC360.

On a side note spent a couple of hours today troubleshooting the locked distributor MS setup,  and its cranking harder then ever (firing).  Just won't turn over.  I moved to your suggestion of connecting all neg sources to the negative side of the battery.  See the pic if anyone has mor suggestions.  Spiking is minimum too.

Edited December 29, 2022 by ptracy26
text updates

[scott87star]

Looks much better, it should be running.  How do the plugs look?  Try opening the throttle a bit during cranking to see if it wants a little more air.

[ptracy26]

Generally I take the plugs out after static logs or firing only happening on first crank.  I'll pull them out and visually inspect and smell for gas.

I used NGK Titanium plugs for the first time and they fire hard but stop after,  pull and spray some carb cleaner on them and repeat, like new again.  I went back to the stock plugs and they seem to fire with-in each log multiple times (maybe better for getting her running).  I have about 6 batches of new plugs I swap in/out at this point.  It's been about a month since I did a wet compression test so I think there's still some oil that atleast on the titanum they get slight black so carb cleaner returns them back to new.  I'll try some more air going forward.

[ptracy26]

Just adding a bit more info,  I put a timing light on it,  and when cranking the engine and its trying to fire or it does its right at TDC,  and when it stops firing but cranking the engine still it moves +/- 5 from TDC.  

I am at this point moving to the trigger 60-1 on the crank.  Have instructions on how to so that's probably the way to go.  Seems pretty clean but I'll keep ya posted.

[tux]

You should have better results.

I am using AEM for the ecu, but when I was trying to get running w/ a Magna distributor, I couldn't get the car to fire.

I should have gone w/ a trigger wheel setup from the get go, but at the time nobody had a kit (mookeeh, motocam, etc), so I decided to go with an AEM EPM mated to a modified stock distributor shaft.

The AEM EPM ended up working out for me, but the trigger wheel setup would have been easier.