venting...SQ issues

[kev]

So I'm in the process of an auto to manual conversion on my 88 tsi.   I got this car from a close friend last year that was sitting in multiple garages with the engine torn down to the block since 1998.  My kids and I fully rebuilt the engine last winter and I've been running it mostly as a daily driver since August and my son will start driving it this summer when he gets his license.   I have 1700 miles on it now but the auto trans is old and tired.    I have all of the parts for the transmission swap prepped and ready to go.  On Sunday, I finally pulled the car into the bay and began the tear-down.   I decided that I'd unhook the heater core hoses and the vac booster hose just for safe keeping for the transmission swap so I don't stretch them when the engine angles down a bit when pulling the tranny.  But also, I want to pull the heater core and replace that small hidden hose when I have the dash out for the swap.     

So anyways, I go to drain the radiator and I immediately find that I have oil mixed with the coolant!   This is very new because I had a minor coolant leak from one of my hose clamps in the late fall (actually noticed it on Thanksgiving day) that I addressed and topped off the fluid...there was no oil then.   There is no coolant in the oil, just oil in the coolant.  No overheating issues or driveablity issues.   But it's definitely the head gasket.  I'm using one of those ajusa stock style gaskets.   I had issues with it sealing on assembly and had to up the torque about 10ft-lbs to get it to hold water.   This is the second time I tried one of these specific gaskets and had problems.   Shame on me for making the same mistake twice but I was given the gasket along with the car and was trying to keep the rebuild on the cheap last winter.   

So my transmission swap has now evolved into more.    I was already planning on doing other work while it is up on stands; heater core hose as mentioned, new seals in the rear differential, new front struts, fix up the interior a bit, etc.   But I wasn't planning on doing anything engine related.    In all, i guess it's not that bad.  I lost count on how many starquest heads I pulled over the years.   Although flushing the coolant system is going to be a PIA.   

Gotta love these cars!

 

[Caliber308]

I've been running a Ajusa MLS for years on a new rebuild with no problems up to 15 psi boost. Perhaps your cylinder head needed shaving or the engine block needed decking.

Bill

[kev]

It’s not the ajusa MLS, just the regular ajusa.  I have the MLS on my other car and it works great. 
 

the head and block are flat. I checked them both on the build.  I’ll be checking them again when I pull the head to make sure the higher torque didn’t cause issues

[TexasQuest]

That sucks man. I guess everyone stay away from the base level Ajusa gasket.

[Dad]

Look very close,  in my experience oil in the coolant can be cracked cylinder wall  or a crack in cylinder head just under cam, rare but have seen it  so don't just assume it was a head gasket and not look closer at head and block.

 

Dad

[kev]

Randy,

Thank you for the input.   Where have you seen cracks in the head?  In the cam journals or simply under the cam in the recesses?   I'll definitely be going over the block and head with a fine comb.   I think your post made my decision to stop on the transmission swap and focus on the engine.   My new gaskets will be here by the weekend.   Number one focus is to now pull the head.  

 

I'm still putting bets on the HG though (and of course am hoping I am correct).  When I built this engine and installed it, I pressure tested the coolant system.  At 13psi, there was water running down the passenger side of the block.   That was with the head properly torqued to spec with stock head bolts.   The ajusa gasket itself had torque values on the packaging that were slightly lower than the FSM.   After retorquing with 10 fl-lbs more, it held.   I have been nervous since because, in my experience, if the HG leaked even the slightest bit, it usually  never sealed up.   But it does concern me that I had  no noticeable oil in the coolant after several months of driving but, all of a sudden, there is a lot of oil in the coolant.  

 

Thanks again!

[kev]

I'm trying to determine the amount of miles I put on since I last had the radiator cap open.  I got it running on March 8, 2021 but never left my driveway until June 29, when I got it road legal.  Drove it heavily at that time because the engine in my Ram blew.   The car had 98.6K on it when I got it and I have a text message to my buddy when I hit 100k on January 3.   I had the radiator cap open on Thanksgiving.   So that means I only have around say 600 miles on it since then.   Makes sense because I pretty much have only been driving it once or twice a week around town to run errands.   600 miles is only two tanks of gas.   I don't drive it hard, especially because the transmission has been slipping.   

I also went through my photos from the engine build.  I have pretty good detailed pictures of both the block and the head including my micrometer in each cylinder, etc.   No issues that I can see.    Did run across this photo with the ajusa laying on the block.   I'll never use this gasket again.  Their MLS gasket is incredible but the plain one..not so much.   

Ok, well all of this is pretty useless until I can get in the garage and pull the head.  Unfortunately that probably won't be until at least Friday night due to commitments today and tomorrow.   Need to get my mind off of this and get back to work, haha.  

 

 

 

[psu_Crash]

Best of Luck! 

And thanks for being the guinea pig with that ajusa gasket. Looks like I'll stick to the "MLS" gasket or a Fel-Pro in the future. I completely understand the "no idea how many times I've pulled a head" Pretty sure I could do it blindfolded 

[BlueCuda]

I'd be worried oil in the water was something else besides a head gasket.  Its not impossible by any means but it seems unlikely.  None of those passages in the head gasket look close enough for this to happen easily.  I hope I am wrong!  

Also, what pistons are those?  I have two short block assemblies at the house and one of them has those exact pistons.  I assumed they are stock but I don't know for sure as the other short block I have has different pistons.  

[kev]

I suspect the rear oil port.  pistons are stock. 
 

I ordered the Felpro 9116.  Never had an issue with them.  I contemplated tossing the ajusa from the start but figured I’d try it again.  At the time the Felpro was about $50.  I bought one this week from one of rockauto warehouse close outs for $17.  
 

I’ll keep you all updated. I’m anxious on getting to work but it’s going to have to wait a few days

[TexasQuest]

I'm interested in seeing the results as well. 

[kev]

Just a quick update.   I have it all torn down and am still in the process of cleaning and inspecting.    Because the transmission was out and with my old tired back, I just pulled the engine and put it on the stand.    

I was expecting to see something glaringly obvious on the HG, but I'm not seeing much.  The witness lines from the fire rings and the HG sealant around the oil ports all look good on both the block and the head.   

I just started cleaning up the block and I think I found something.   There appears to be a crack between a coolant port on the one head bolt hole!   

 

[BlueCuda]

Interesting, and that sucks.  But, I would think it would be getting coolant in the oil not the other way around.  To get oil in the coolant your the two have to meet where the oil is under greater pressure than the coolant.  Even then you would expect it to get some coolant in the oil when the engine was off and the cooling system still under pressure.  

[kev]

I'm a bit perplexed too.   This crack is no where near an oil port.   

When I pulled the radiator hose, I smelled combustion fluids.  It smelled as if I pulled the gas line.  Yet no signs even the slightest bit of overheating nor bubbling in the slop tank.    

 

Going through my photos from when I built the engine last year...I zoomed in on a picture and I see the crack.  It's hard to see but I can tell it was there.  

 

 

[Caliber308]

It is like you told me: The block and cylinder head are flat. But did you have the engine block Magnafluxed?  So, if you saw a crack in the engine block, why did you go forward with the build?

Bill

[kev]

I did not have it magnafluxed.   I saw the crack by looking at a photograph today from when I built it last year.  Obviously I missed it.   

[admin_JAinsworth]

Kev.

That sucks. I've rebuilt a few and never bothered to magnaflux any of them. I was just lucky.  I did rebuild my motor in a 240Z I had and regretted not having it done. It ran about 5 minutes before I realized it. A wasted rebuild but it happens.

Jimmy

[kev]

I've never had a G54B block crack on me, much less from a bone stock car with under 100k on it.   It still makes no sense to me on how I'm getting oil in the coolant from this.  

I hate to say it but I'm most likely going to give up on this car.   What was going to be a cheap first car for my son is proving to be anything but.    I have other cars to put the time and devotion into.   This thing still needs bodywork, paint, etc.  and my kids don't have the enthusiasm I thought they would with it....might be time to let someone else have a project.    

[Caliber308]

So to me the moral of the story is: Better to spend the money to Magnaflux than not. I've built a few V-8 engines in my day and Magnafluxed every single one of them, and some were cracked. It is better to be safe than sorry. Hope this thread helps others in the future.

Bill

Edited March 7, 2022 by Caliber308

[kev]

And your purpose is to rub my nose in it?   Yes, obviously I should have had it magnafluxed.   I made a mistake, I can admit that.   I have magnafluxed blocks too, never had a finding.   I guess I live and learn.   I cut some corners on this build, it's a car for my 16 year old to learn to drive on.    I was never planning on spending a lot of cash on this one.   Even if I scrapped it as-is today, I only have a grand invested. 

[ucw458]

Have you pressure tested the turbo?  A friend of mine had a cracked Mitsu turbo CHRA that would leak coolant into the oil drain.  Fairly rare problem but it does happen.

[Caliber308]

20 hours ago, kev said:

And your purpose is to rub my nose in it?   

Sorry you feel that way. My responses were not meant to belittle you, it was  hopefully trying to help other members who  decide to do a rebuild without having the engine block Magnafluxed. Some members might spend thousands to build a  Starquest engine. Wouldn't you like them to have the best information possible from experienced Starquest  owners?  Again, if I offended you, I am sorry.

Bill

[BlueCuda]

I guess its possible that it is cracked somewhere else, say maybe it froze at some point?  My dad did have an engine in his race car where an oil passage was enlarged and got into water.  It did not leak water into the oil just oil into the water.  So I suppose the higher pressure from the oil can compromise the crack but not the lower pressure from the coolant?  Sucks either way!

[obsolete]

Sorry to hear that, kev. If you sell that car for anywhere near what you have into it, whoever ends up buying it would be getting a great deal.

[kev]

Been talking with Dad on PM.  He agrees that the crack I found is not the cause of oil in the coolant.  He suggested I continue inspecting, specifically the head.   

Interesting point made by ucw458 with the turbo.   I thought about that but from the limited research I did, it looks like it is next to impossible to get oil into the coolant through the CRA.   It's a good point though and I think I could make up something to pressurize the oil side of the CRA to see if I have any leaks out of the coolant passages.  I have to think about that for a bit though. 

 

So, I've been giving this more thought and am not going to give up just yet.  My son isn't keen on offloading the vehicle and is willing to help me with the repairs.   

I have another block sitting in my garage but it is the original numbers matching engine for my blue tsi.  I really want to hold onto it along with its original transmission.  But my buddy still has the engine from an 86 starion we bought for parts years ago.  I just need to take a bit of a drive to pick it up. 

 But first I want to check out this head real closely.   I'll pull the cam, clean it all up and see if I can find any cracks.  If it checks out good, I'll work on cleaning up all the parts until I have a chance to pick up the other engine.  I'll feel more comfortable if I can positively identify the source of the original issue.   

With the 'new' block, I'll do my own visual inspection and mic out the cylinders and crank journals.  If it checks out good on my end, I'll definitely have it magnafluxed and at least visually inspected by a local shop and I think I will have it cleaned/boiled.   Any other recommendations without breaking the bank?  I'm not going to invest $3k in machine work like I did on my other car because I'm not building up a high horsepower engine.   This car is bone stock and it will stay that way for as long as I own it.  That was one of the stipulations I gave to my son, no modifications (at least not when it comes to horsepower). 

The only thing left on the original block is the rotating assembly.   So I'll need new crank and rod bearings, new rear main seal, and I guess new piston rings yet again for they are now seated to this engine.   So if the machine shop work is affordable, it won't be that much more money.   

My goal is to get this done in the next two months because it is blocking in my blue tsi.