vbrad511 Posted October 24, 2015 Report Share Posted October 24, 2015 My 88's been touchy on starting for quite some time. Sometimes I hit the key and it cranks immediately. Other times I'have to hit it 4, 5, maybe even 10 times before it works. I did replace the ignition switch many years ago with a used one. Seemed like the trouble went away for a while, but came back. I've had 3 different starters on it, and just today changed the main relay over the ECU. I also thought it might've been a poor ground issue, but I added an extra ground cable to the block/battery a while back. When it's in the start position things click and hum, but no cranks. Suggestions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedyquest Posted October 25, 2015 Report Share Posted October 25, 2015 Maybe check the connector for the starter. The small wire with the spade connector. If it gets loose or dirty it can cause what your describing. Yea I know its a simple thing but hey I figured I'd point it out in case it's something simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikec Posted October 25, 2015 Report Share Posted October 25, 2015 What you are describing sounds like a classic case of the starter solenoid being weak, have a failed coil, or having lousy voltage from the ignition switch. Basically, the solenoid is an electromagnet with two coils. The two coils work together to "slam" the starter motor pinion gear into the engine flywheel, nudging the flywheel as necessary to get the gears to mesh. If the gear teeth happen to be lined up just right (i.e. side of the teeth hit directly instead of actually meshing the teeth faces) the starter gear needs a LOT of force to rotate the engine & flywheel. Poor electrical wiring & connections in the IGN circuit (battery -> IGN fusible link -> ignition switch input -> START position and ON positions -> factory alarm relay A-40X -> starter solenoid via a black+yellow wire) lead to voltage losses in the wiring which means the solenoids don't get enough input energy to do their jobs. Often when this happens, if you put the car into gear and leave the clutch pedal out while pushing/pulling the car just a little bit (i.e. rotating the engine yourself), that gets the gears to align and the starter "comes to life" because now the solenoids can finish their job. One end of the pushrod inside the solenoid moves the gear assembly to engage the starter to the flywheel, the other end closes a beefy switch to send power to the actual starter motor once the gears are meshed. If the gears never mesh... this switch never closes and the starter motor never runs. You just hear a "click" from the solenoid and gear smacking into the flywheel ring gear. First basic test is to attach a voltmeter to the small wire running to the starter solenoid - this is the wire from the ignition key. When trying to start the engine, this wire should read pretty much full battery voltage. If not, the solenoid is being denied working energy by crappy wiring. A common starter solenoid issue is for one of the two coils to fail. With only 1 of 2 coils working, the solenoid has much less force when trying to mesh the gears... it isn't able to "nudge" the engine/flywheel much. Ergo the starter gear never properly engages and thus the starter motor is never switched ON. If you remove the starter, there are simple tests you can do to check the solenoid. You'll need a 12 power supply or small 12 volt battery. You could use the car's battery but be very careful to avoid short circuits. And if the solenoid coil has failed by internally shorting out, using a car battery for testing will lead to a lot of sparks and likely melted test wires. At least wear gloves and have eye & face protection just in case. With the starter out of the car: (disconnect the battery before taking the starter out!)You'll see a braided wire strap going from the motor body to a stud connection on the solenoid. Undo that strap from the solenoid and bend it out of the way. This keeps the motor from running... which in turn keeps the starter from suddenly jumping around on your workbench!The solenoid post that had the fat wire to the starter motor is the "M" post.The flat connector tab where the car's black+yellow wire snapped into it (this is the wire from the ignition key START position) is the "S" post.The other wire/stud on the solenoid is the "B" (battery) post. The beefy wire directly from the battery "+" post connects to this one. "B" and "M are also the posts of the beefy switch inside the starter solenoid that runs the motor. When the solenoid's beefy switch is ON, "B" is connected to "M" to run the motor. Test procedure:1. Securely clamp the starter solenoid+motor assembly in a bench vise or some other contraption that'll hold it securely. The assembly will want to move/jump pretty hard so you want it held down. If nothing else, vise-grips or other locking pliers clamped to a mounting ear on the motor and then held to the workbench (or garage floor) by a heavy weight is better than nothing. 2. Undo the braided wire from the "M" post as noted above. 3. Firmly connect the test battery/power supply "-" wire (typically a black wire) to the "M" screw post. 4. Touch the battery/power supply "+" wire (typically the red wire) to the "S" tab for a second or two. The solenoid should firmly snap the starter gear out. Remove the wire and test again... The solenoid action should be quite firm and positive. This tests the main "pull-in" electromagnet coil of the solenoid which is a common solenoid failure. Don't leave power applied for more than a couple seconds to avoid overheating the solenoid coil. When done, remove the battery/power supply "+" wire from the "S" post. 5. If that test is okay, move the battery/power supply "-" wire to the body of the starter (i.e. ground). 6. Now touch the battery/power supply "+" wire to the "S" tab again. The solenoid should extend the gear again though likely nowhere near as firmly as the pull-in coil test. This is testing the "hold in" coil of the solenoid; this coil keeps the starter gear engaged with the flywheel and keeps the beefy switch ON once the solenoid has fully moved to the engage position. If this coil fails, the starter motor will cycle between ON and OFF as you hold the key. Why? Because, once the solenoid moves via the pull-in coil and closes the beefy switch, the action of the beefy switch happens to disconnect the pull-in coil. So you need this second "hold in" coil to keep the solenoid engaged and the switch ON. On cars with auto transmissions, the "park-neutral safety switch" (aka "Inhibitor Switch" in MItsu's wiring manuals) is added to the wiring. This switch is ON (closed, passing electricity) when the transmission lever is in park or neutral to prevent starting the engine while the transmission is in gear. It's not uncommon for the mounting bolts for this switch to get loose on the vehicle rendering the switch useless. The switch has slots in its mounting holes so it can be adjusted... when the screws get loose the adjustment is lost. Once in a while the switch itself gets crappy: if moving/wigling the shift lever while holding the key in START makes the starter suddenly come to life this is the problem, it's very common on other brands of cars as well. Try wiggling in Neutral as well if Park doesn't work. If your car also shows symptoms of varying intensity interior and/or headlights (rapidly varying as you drive, not varying in sync with engine RPMs) then a lousy ground is also on the possibilities list. There is a beefy wire from the battery "-" post, to a bolt on the body "frame rail" below the battery, and then to the engine block. All three connection points MUST be solid. Corrision is common and must be removed. I like to use "star" washers on these connections. Star washers look like normal washers with thin metal ears facing inwards or outwards; these ears are twisted (like propeller blades) so their edges bite into whatever is sandwiching the washer. Loose starter mounting bolts also result in a lousy ground to the starter motor. Always clean the mating surfaces of the starter & engine when attaching the starter since that is the ground connection. mike c. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vbrad511 Posted October 25, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 25, 2015 This was an auto car I converted to stick. I jumpered that "safety" in the harness. Maybe that needs some attention. I've had 3 different starters on it, and 2 ignition switches so I wouldn't think they'd be the issue. I'll try that jumper tomorrow. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarquestRescue Posted October 31, 2015 Report Share Posted October 31, 2015 (edited) This was an auto car I converted to stick. I jumpered that "safety" in the harness. Maybe that needs some attention. I've had 3 different starters on it, and 2 ignition switches so I wouldn't think they'd be the issue. I'll try that jumper tomorrow. ThanksMine is also a auto to 5 speed car and does the same thing once in a while. I have the wires jumpered by the fire wall. years ago i had extended them in to the car to a switch, but the car would not start reliably. The fsm shows an inhibitor relay that the starter wire goes threw, i believe this was part of the anti theft and alarm system? Edited October 31, 2015 by StarquestRescue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vbrad511 Posted November 1, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 1, 2015 I haven't had much time to pick at this. Did make sure it was getting good contact at the starter trigger wire, but still acting up. You don't have a location for that inhibitor relay, do you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarquestRescue Posted November 1, 2015 Report Share Posted November 1, 2015 Behind the metal cover by the battery. I found it in the front of the 88 electrical book. It is normally closed. Short answer is a new wire from the ignition switch strait to the starter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vbrad511 Posted November 1, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 1, 2015 Perfect. I'm gonna swap that relay out first. I've got a neutral safety switch wired in to the clutch pedal that I'd rather not mess with. If that doesn't do the trick I'll run that dedicated wire. Thanks... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vbrad511 Posted November 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 8, 2015 The relay wasn't the problem. When you ran the dedicated wire did run it direct, or put a relay inline? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleepin Posted November 10, 2015 Report Share Posted November 10, 2015 (edited) Not to hijack...well, maybe a little. I have recently experienced a starting issue twice with my bone stock '86. The solenoid does not click or anything. Dash lights come on, but that's about it. The first time it happened, I thought it was because I didn't have the clutch in all the way (that is exactly how it acts when my big boots don't push down far enough). I pumped the clutch pedal back and forth a couple times, turned the key off and on and it starts like normal. Is it common to have the clutch safety switch fail? I have read in this thread ( http://www.starquestclub.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=88551 )that 88 and earlier cars do not have a safety switch...mine must, because it has never been able to start without the clutch pedal depressed. Any suggestions? It is (so far) a random issue, but it sure leaves a pit in my stomach every time that I turn the key and nothing happens. Edited November 10, 2015 by Sleepin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarquestRescue Posted November 11, 2015 Report Share Posted November 11, 2015 (edited) The relay wasn't the problem. When you ran the dedicated wire did run it direct, or put a relay inline?I did not run a new wire. I just eliminated the extra wire i had run to a switch inside the car. If the problem is voltage drop. A relay tripped by the starter wire should work. If it is an intermittently bad connection, a new wire could be run from the ignition switch to the starter or the relay if you tried that first. Edited November 11, 2015 by StarquestRescue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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