Tim_C. Posted March 6, 2009 Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 Well, this was on my flatsider '83 car that I got a while back. Not the CBRII. I put it here in VM because it gets viewed more and this applies to all StarQuests. I've been doing some low dollar fixes when I had time, but I haven't been able to figure out this problem until now. As soon as the turbo spooled (which is very fast on this non-intercooled), it would make a fuel sounding burble and fall on it's face and blow black smoke. I could drive the car as long as I didn't give it enough gas to spool the turbo. Needless to say it has been very unrewarding. Today, I decided to just pop the hood and look at it again. I have changed injectors, etc.. to no avail. I guess I never took a close enough look at the ground wire to the intake manifold. I made sure it was connected before, but I never looked very close. After a closer inspection, the mating two plastic connectors were melted together electrically! I never saw a ground wire have that kind of heat on it. I could not separate the two connectors, so I cut them out and replaced with a new wire, bead blasted the bolt, wire brushed the intake boss, and bead blasted that harness bracket that the bolt actually grounds the wire through. Wow! What a difference. Now it spools up fast and the engine stays on power under boost like never before. It is running very well. A night and day difference. I also hardwired new fuse link wire in place of the fuse link box. The electrics on the car work much better. I think the car should be very reliable now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrazilBoy Posted March 6, 2009 Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 Thanks Tim....I will take a look at mine aswell..this is cheap insurance from other major issues later on... I cleaned and put conductive grease on the battery terminals 2 weeks ago..big difference..I think most of us assume the worse and forget the little things along the way... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joey_crandall Posted March 6, 2009 Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 is this the wire with the plastic fuse holder thing in it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim_C. Posted March 6, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 is this the wire with the plastic fuse holder thing in it? No. That is a noise suppressor for the stereo. This wire is about 10 - 12 Ga (much larger diameter than the one with the fuse holder). It is only about 5 inches long with a rectangular shaped plastic spade connector. It has a large round ring terminal that is bolted to the intake manifold with an 8mm thread (12mm hex) bolt. The bolt goes through a harness support bracket that holds the control harness on the intake manifold. That bracket tends to corrode, so it must be cleaned on both sides, since it actually conducts current. One challenge that can't be overlooked is the threads inside of the female boss. The last few bolt threads (deepest in the hole) were corroded with white battery type corrosion. I had to use a wire brush with long enough bristles to get down in the hole and clean it. I probably should have used some baking soda and a long bristle tooth brush to really get it cleaned out. I was late for an appointment, so I'll have to pull the bolt again today and clean that hole better. When I'm done I plan to spray the bolt with some corrosion prevention made for battery terminals. It pays to have a friend with an alternator shop! Another issue here is the factory bolt used for the ground. It is a standard bolt like any other bolt, and a bit short at that. It is maybe 3/8 of an inch long. When I bead blasted it, all of the plating came off to reveal a normal steel bolt. It would be nice to have a bolt like the main battery ground to the block. I guess the moral here is that ground wire gets hot and the injection system relies heavily on a good connection there. Why Mitsu put a connector there when it is bolted 3 inches away, I don't know. I recommend everyone cut that connector out of there, and solder in a 10 Ga or heavier wire to the harness with a new ring terminal. You'll be amazed at the difference. Again, I am totally blown away at how strong a stock 2.6L with 4.5 Lbs of boost can run! That is stock boost for a non-intercooled. And, it gets 29 miles to the gallon! At least my '85 does. I paid $300 for this car that has a top speed of 130+MPH, mega power to pass on these single lane highways where it is easy to get stuck behind a hay truck and 10 cars behind it. Now I have the power to literally boost past the whole stack of cars if needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psu_Crash Posted March 6, 2009 Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 Congrats! I just put a new ground strap on my car. I used the inch wide braided stuff and soldered a large connector to one end and connected it to the intake. The the loose end went right in my battery(-) terminal. Then a piece of 2 gauge connects the battery to the frame. But that has been there. I noticed about a week ago that there was a small burnt spot on my steel braided turbo coolant line and knew immediately that is was grounding to the hood! Took the old ground wire and grabbed the DMM ... I was getting almost 3k ohms from one end to the other. sensor signals look much better now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jehu Posted March 6, 2009 Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 As soon as the turbo spooled (which is very fast on this non-intercooled), it would make a fuel sounding burble and fall on it's face and blow black smoke. I could drive the car as long as I didn't give it enough gas to spool the turbo. Needless to say it has been very unrewarding. This sounds eerily similar to what my Starion is doing. I'll make sure to check all my grounds in addition to the one listed. the mating two plastic connectors: so I cut them out and replaced with a new wire So a ground wire has connectors in the middle of it? I wonder why? Would eliminating them cause issues for any reason? I wonder why Mitsu had them if they are unnecessary (and an obvious weak point of a ground wire)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyberquest Posted March 6, 2009 Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 (edited) The SOS goes into GREAT DETAIL about ground #3 (intake manifold) and it's faults. Melting this connecter is generally caused by a poor ground #11, main body ground, or ground #2, the engine block or a bad negative battery cable. And, if you ignore the grounds it will SLOW COOK the fusible links too and is pure hell on the Alternator. http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d182/Professor-Quest123/Batt%20Grd/GR-15-1.jpg Edited March 10, 2009 by cyberquest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAinsworth Posted March 6, 2009 Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 This is why I do preventative maintenance once a year on my grounds, fusible links, etc. I clean the contact points and dab some dielectric grease on them. Jimmy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim_C. Posted March 7, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2009 This is why I do preventative maintenance once a year on my grounds, fusible links, etc. I clean the contact points and dab some dielectric grease on them. Jimmy Yep, I was a believer before, but now I will be a bit more religiuos about it and check all grounds on all of my cars. Usually the trans ground is gone or hanging off too, so I have always ensured it gets put back. I remember the main battery ground was corroded when I got the car, so I fixed it right off about a year ago. StarQuests will indeed use just about anything to ground the system including the accellerator cable. I'm beginning to wonder how many electrical issues these are soley caused by a bad ground. I've got a spool of the 1" braided ground cable that has been laying around for a few years! I think I will break it out and go to town with it too! Good idea! I feel stupid because this has been hammered over time and time again by all of us old timers, and here I got caught with my pants down so to speak. I'm definitely cutting that connector out of all my cars. When the system is under load, it needs the best connection possible, which is no connection at all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jehu Posted March 7, 2009 Report Share Posted March 7, 2009 I'm definitely cutting that connector out of all my cars. I'm still wondering what it's for! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim_C. Posted March 7, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2009 I'm still wondering what it's for! Well, it makes it easier to remove with the AC system installed. My way would probably require removing the AC line bracket so you can move the hoses out of the way, and even then it isn't easy to get the bolt started. I suppose cleaning the connectors and reinstalling with dielectric grease is fine, but the wire on mine was cooked too. The insulation was also hard as a rock and cracked. It is like the fuse links. The idea is great to have quick change links but the addition of all the connection points with more places to corrode and attract corrosion is bad for longevity and doesn't conduct nearly as well as a hardwired link soldered in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrazilBoy Posted March 7, 2009 Report Share Posted March 7, 2009 Tim just post some pics...this will be best I believe.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim_C. Posted March 7, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2009 Sure, I saved the piece I cut out for my wall of shame! I'll take some pics of it and the fix, and my fuse links. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrazilBoy Posted March 7, 2009 Report Share Posted March 7, 2009 Sure, I saved the piece I cut out for my wall of shame! I'll take some pics of it and the fix, and my fuse links. You rock and you'll save your fingers from retyping this info over and over Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technology Posted March 7, 2009 Report Share Posted March 7, 2009 Yeah, I did that with the MPI build, and it's much like the starquest.i-x.net pictorial fixes, but with less crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim_C. Posted March 8, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2009 Yeah, I did that with the MPI build, and it's much like the starquest.i-x.net pictorial fixes, but with less crazy. LOL! I like the "less crazy" part! That's what I always think when I see those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edde Posted March 8, 2009 Report Share Posted March 8, 2009 This would be the same wire that leads to welded throttle cables as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim_C. Posted March 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 Yes, and I had fixed the battery ground cable when I first got the car. I just didn't check the manifold ground until now. We figure the battery ground being bad was the original problem that contributed to the manifold ground corroding and melting because there really isn't enough load on the manifold wire to melt it unless the main ground is bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shelby Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 that ground on the intake is for the ECU , but if any ground is bad the electrical flow will go where ever it can , if the block ground point is bad your likely to over load the ecu circirt , and strange things can happen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacob T Conquest Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 (edited) Well, this was on my flatsider '83 car that I got a while back. Not the CBRII. I put it here in VM because it gets viewed more and this applies to all StarQuests. I've been doing some low dollar fixes when I had time, but I haven't been able to figure out this problem until now. As soon as the turbo spooled (which is very fast on this non-intercooled), it would make a fuel sounding burble and fall on it's face and blow black smoke. I could drive the car as long as I didn't give it enough gas to spool the turbo. Needless to say it has been very unrewarding. Today, I decided to just pop the hood and look at it again. I have changed injectors, etc.. to no avail. I guess I never took a close enough look at the ground wire to the intake manifold. I made sure it was connected before, but I never looked very close. After a closer inspection, the mating two plastic connectors were melted together electrically! I never saw a ground wire have that kind of heat on it. I could not separate the two connectors, so I cut them out and replaced with a new wire, bead blasted the bolt, wire brushed the intake boss, and bead blasted that harness bracket that the bolt actually grounds the wire through. Wow! What a difference. Now it spools up fast and the engine stays on power under boost like never before. It is running very well. A night and day difference. I also hardwired new fuse link wire in place of the fuse link box. The electrics on the car work much better. I think the car should be very reliable now. Tim, I have an 89'. Looked for but couldn't find the ground! Can you tell me where it is? Thanks Oh! never mind I went back and didn't see the pic. from last night until after the question! Edited March 10, 2009 by Jacob T Conquest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyberquest Posted March 11, 2009 Report Share Posted March 11, 2009 (edited) this is the ground he is talking about. http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d182/Professor-Quest123/Batt%20Grd/GR-15-1.jpg this topic covers other ground areas of the car. http://starquest.i-x.net/viewtopic.php?t=916 and this topic covers fuseable links and things of that nature. http://starquest.i-x.net/viewtopic.php?t=1180 Edited March 11, 2009 by cyberquest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim_C. Posted May 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2009 After driving the car with the ground fixed for a few months, it started doing the same thing again. It runs fairly well until it hits boost and then goes pig rich, burbles and falls on it's face. I was going to swap parts from the CBRII car ('83 runs perfect). But then I thought what if the old injectors are just worn out and the fixed ground revived them for a while? So, I have another set of '83 injectors in a separate '83 TBI (ECI) cup assembly complete with regulator. I swapped them in and it is running great again now! going to boost fine and accellerating very well. I'm still a bit leary of these injectors as they were tempermental at first, but seem to be working well now. Another issue was sometimes at start up, the old injectors would stick open (sticking open was the root cause of problem) for just a second at idle. This made the idle go up 1500 RPM at a time and come back down on it's own. Mimicking a severe MAF hunting issue. It would do this for about 3 minutes and then clear up to run fine except it stil wouldn't boost because the load was too much for the old injector. This current injector set did the same thing, only for about 10 minutes before it cleared up to run fine. They probably need a good professional cleaning, but they seem to be working fine for now. it is a royal pain getting an '83 ECI cup to seal everything, so I won't pull them again unless it starts acting up again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim_C. Posted May 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2009 I guess the moral of the story again is that ground is mighty important to injectors. It revived otherwise non-working injectors to work again. It may be why they wore out too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlattopMike Posted May 12, 2009 Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 10 minutes sounds like about the same amount of time it takes for the CTS to come up to temp. Have you checked it out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim_C. Posted May 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 13, 2009 10 minutes sounds like about the same amount of time it takes for the CTS to come up to temp. Have you checked it out? Yes, I did try that before. I meant to say the problem is completely gone again now. It seems the injectors are a bit gummed up. I should have had them cleaned, but I get concerned about other people (even pro injector handlers) handling the hardwired injectors wrong and breaking the wires. The '83 style injectors are hardwired all the way into the injector body. The wires are always old and cracking to the point of almost breaking off. It is rare to find them in good condition. Some injector cleaners don't like to touch them either. I've had a set returned before with the note that they could not do anything with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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