83 = Lean AFR - Fuel Injector & Pump

[StrayWolf83]

Hi Gang...

 

Need a little help.... yet again.

 

I've run into a problem with putting my 83 back together again.

The car is back together,.. new head, changed out the o-rings in Fuel unit, new Alternator, radiator, wires/plugs/distributor, and added an intercooler.

 

Started her up on Monday and she is running a little sluggish.

Checked the injectors and found one injector not firing.

Found one broken wire shorting out the injector, so I replaced the injectors with a spare set from a back up 83 ECI set-up.

 

Re-Started up the car and when I looked at the AFR meter, it shows LEAN mixture.

 

I checked the new set of injectors and here is what I got.

- Ohm rating good

- Reading the Voltage across both injectors at idle:

(one read 1.297 volts & other read 0.150 volts)

 

Is the voltage reading across the injectors suppose to be the same???

And if so,... at what value???

 

When I accelerate the engine, the Voltage increase on both injectors, but not equally.

 

How do I check the ECI and ECU???

I was reading about an ECI checker in the manual.... how do I get one??

 

Thanks

Wolf

 

*** ONE PROBLEM FOUND = FUEL PUMP FAILING *** (But another issue has developed)

Edited November 29, 2008 by StrayWolf83

[shift1313]

hey wolf, how are you measuring the voltage on the injectors? with it running you would need to have a scope or an analog meter i would imagine. The injectors have 12v all the time and the ecu grounds the other side of the injector, so when you turn your car to on i believe you should have 12v on one leg of each injector. I made the same mistake as you swapping a bunch of stuff at the same time as the IC and my car run extremely sluggish. I switched my comp housing back to the non IC unit but havent had a chance to drive it yet.

 

was the car running fine before? are you 100 percent your timing is correct? that will make a big difference

[FlattopMike]

On an 83 both the injectors take turns firing so there is no primary/secondary injectors. Both injectors should read the same. That being said, I don't think that you can accurately meter them the way you are doing it. You can meter them at the ECU. At idle you should get 13V-14V at terminal B9 for injector #1 and B10 for injector #2. At 3000 rpm you should get a flat 13V.

 

If you get 2.5 ohms across the injectors when disconnected and 12V to 14V going to them with the ignition on but the engine not running, I doubt it is your injectors.

 

I would check 1st for vacuum leaks. Any unmetered air entering the system will cause a lean condition. Don't forget the power brake vacuum hose. It can crack and leak from the inside without showing any signs of trouble on the outside.

 

Another thing to check is the Coolant Temp Sensor. If it is shorted out the ECU will think that the engine is warmer than it is and give it less fuel than it needs. It should read about 2.5K ohms @ 68* and 300 ohms @ 175*.

 

You might also want to check your throttle position sensor. It should range from 4K ohms to 6K ohms.

[83_project_toy]

i've seen air/fuel reading in 2 83's and both were lean at idle mine was 1 of them but would would bounce from rich to lean after warmup. you also got to remember that the o2 sensor needs to warmup to. also might want to check the o2 sensor when they get old or start fouling they can give false and weird readings.

[StrayWolf83]

Thank everyone for your help!!!!

 

I took everyones advise and started check over the whole car in the areas suggested.

Checked vacuum lines, rechecked voltage and ohm reading off the injectors and ECU, tested the Coolant temp switches, and pulled the O2 sensor to clean.

 

After testing out sensors, checking ECU readings, making sure all vacuum lines where secure and not broken, plugging/unplugging wires to make sure connection was good and tight,...

 

I started the beast back up :

The AFR gauge showed a reading way above my previous reading which was only 2-3 red bars at the bottom of the gauge at LEAN. My AFR reading now is showing bars just passed the LEAN red bars, and into the yellow bars of STOICH area. As the car warmed, AFR bars reached about center gauge for a readings. Rechecked timing and adjusted to 10 degrees above center. Idle was smooth and about 1000 to 900rpms.

 

I think that did it. THANKS GUYS!!!!!!!!

 

I will be taking it out this weekend for a test run. I will let you all know how she does.

 

One last question....

During my testing of different sensor in and around the ECI unit (Everything volts or ohms out good), I came across one sensor I can't seem to find a listing for to check????? .... The one located on top of the metal gooseneck that connects the radiator hose to the intake manifold. I'm talking about the metal cap that covers the T-stat.

What is the little sensor that screw into the side??

What section of the manual is it located???

I have been looking for the past hour and can't find anything on it to check if it is ok.

 

THANKS AGAIN GANG!!!

Wolf

[83_project_toy]

Thank everyone for your help!!!!

 

I took everyones advise and started check over the whole car in the areas suggested.

Checked vacuum lines, rechecked voltage and ohm reading off the injectors and ECU, tested the Coolant temp switches, and pulled the O2 sensor to clean.

 

After testing out sensors, checking ECU readings, making sure all vacuum lines where secure and not broken, plugging/unplugging wires to make sure connection was good and tight,...

 

I started the beast back up :

The AFR gauge showed a reading way above my previous reading which was only 2-3 red bars at the bottom of the gauge at LEAN. My AFR reading now is showing bars just passed the LEAN red bars, and into the yellow bars of STOICH area. As the car warmed, AFR bars reached about center gauge for a readings. Rechecked timing and adjusted to 10 degrees above center. Idle was smooth and about 1000 to 900rpms.

 

I think that did it. THANKS GUYS!!!!!!!!

 

I will be taking it out this weekend for a test run. I will let you all know how she does.

 

One last question....

During my testing of different sensor in and around the ECI unit (Everything volts or ohms out good), I came across one sensor I can't seem to find a listing for to check????? .... The one located on top of the metal gooseneck that connects the radiator hose to the intake manifold. I'm talking about the metal cap that covers the T-stat.

What is the little sensor that screw into the side??

What section of the manual is it located???

I have been looking for the past hour and can't find anything on it to check if it is ok.

 

THANKS AGAIN GANG!!!

Wolf

 

i know your ecu isn't the problem your ecu is the spare i had for my car and ran in mine for awhile to trouble shoot some stuff. :hmm3grin2orange:

[FlattopMike]

That is the thermal shut off to your A/C.

If your car overheats, it will short out and your A/C will stop working.

 

Of course, if you don't know this and you can't get the damn A/C to work no matter what you do, and you were replacing the engine anyway, you might just say the hell with it and rip out all of the A/C out of the car only to find out later that all I needed to do was replace that stupid sensor or even just bypass the damn thing but NOOOOOO, so now it's 100* out and I'm driving my black car sweating my a$$ off!!!!!!

 

OK.......I feel better now.

[StrayWolf83]

ECU = When I bought the car from Scott he said the ECU was replaced and was good, but since I waschecking everything else why not check that to.

 

OK,... So that what that little sensor is for.... The A/C unit. That is one place in the manual I did not check.... SINCE the A/C was pulled out of my 83, I did not bother to look in that section.

 

Thanks again for everything gang.

 

I'll let you know tomorrow how the test run goes.

 

Wolf

[StrayWolf83]

OK Gang....

 

The car's AFR is holding steady at middle gauge.

Started off a little LEAN (as 83 Project Toy said) and as it warmed up ... the AFR went up.

She was running very well for everything new being added into it.

 

BUT NOW I have a new problem and I know the reason why...... I JUST NEED ADVISE!!!

OK, the problem is NO BOOST on the turbo,...

 

When I added the IC system, I up-graded the non-IC turbo to a IC-Turbo and single line wastegate to the car. (14B turbo set at 9.5lbs boost)

 

With the new set up.... IDIOT me forgot to think about wastegate vacuum controls.

The old stock 12A turbo I had on the car was set with the wastegate's single vacuum hose running back into the turbo. With the NEW 14B turbo..... I have no where to run the single wastegate vacuum line!?!?!

 

I was looking at the 88 manual and I saw a "WASTEGATE SELONOID VALVE". I am guessing that is what I need to help me regain TUBRO control??? (But that Selenoid hooks into 3 port wastegate)

 

Or is there something else I need to get the tubro boosting ???

 

What do I need to do with the new Wastegate vacuum line ????? :confused0024:

 

Even stupid question.... Will it hurt anything running the car with that wastegate not hooked up. She seemed to run pretty good for a test run with no boost pressure.

 

Forgive the idiot questions gang it has been a long week!!!!

[83_project_toy]

ok for the boost not sure what year you got the ovcp from or if it matters but there should be a nipple somewhere on the ovcp think it was near the bend right before it connects to the TB. if there isn't one the other thing you can do is T into the hose thats on the 3rd nipple on the TB or incase your tired the one closest to the fire wall.

[mikec]

You can sense boost pressure on pretty much any port between the turbo outlet and the throttle plates. If the car is intercooled, it's advantageous to tap in after the intercooler but still before the throttle plates.

 

Easy to access sources:

1: factory setup on intercooled cars is a nipple on the over-the-valve-cover pipe (OVCP) as 83_project_toy already posted.

2: air "return" nipple on throttle body inlet - right where the OVCP connects. It points towards the front of the car. This port exists on 84-later t-bodies; I don't know if it exists on 83 setups or not. Something equivalent MUST exist though as this port is used for the emissions system stuff as a return.

3: port that feeds the fuel pressure regulator. Again, easily seen on 84-later throttle bodies; I don't know about 83 setups.

 

If you're not sure... just start the engine and let it idle. On a vac hose/port that you think might work, unplug the hose. If there is ANY vacuum on the port it will NOT work. Ports on the intake manifold are after the throttle plates and thus will not work for boost sensing (wastegate actuator) hoses.

 

mike c.

[shift1313]

sorry for the bad lines im using a lap top but the blob on the OVC pipe and the one on the TB are the two places on the 84 and the IC ovcpipe that mike was talking about. even on the non ic setup i run the line to the TB. Its not on the comp housing because of the cooling of the IC the density of the air will change changing the actual boost psi. It could be 1 or 2 psi drop between the comp housing to the TB.

 

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj39/shift1313/Starion/engine%20bay%20location/starionturbonip.jpg

[StrayWolf83]

sorry for the bad lines im using a lap top but the blob on the OVC pipe and the one on the TB are the two places on the 84 and the IC ovcpipe that mike was talking about. even on the non ic setup i run the line to the TB. Its not on the comp housing because of the cooling of the IC the density of the air will change changing the actual boost psi. It could be 1 or 2 psi drop between the comp housing to the TB.

 

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj39/shift1313/Starion/engine%20bay%20location/starionturbonip.jpg

 

-------------------------

 

OK,.. I'm baffled once more.

 

With some modications to my 83 factory OVCP I have spliced in a section of later model OVCP that has the nipple connect you are all talkng about.

The Wastegate vacuum line is connected into that nipple. With that connection hook up I am only getting about 1-2 psi off factory & aftermarket boost gauge reading.

 

Shouldn't there be something in between the connection points of the Wastegate vaccum hose and the OVCP nipple??

 

I will take a photo and post it later today to show what my set-up looks like.

 

Thanks gang

Edited August 24, 2008 by StrayWolf83

[FlattopMike]

You might have a problem with your waste gate. Try with your waste gate vacuum hose disconnected but be careful, it should max out.

If you get no better, the problem is with the WG.

[shift1313]

the end of the wastegate actuator arm is threaded and thats how you adjust it to factory boost. your actuator should be 7.5psi. Its possible the wastegate inside the turbo is partially open and not letting you full boost. If you were going to run a mbc it would go in that line from the ovc pipe to the wastegate actuator but you shouldnt need one.

 

The only reason the 88 FSM showed a boost solenoid is because they use a 3port wastegate. one port is 7.5psi and the other two are on the 10.5psi side. if the car senses knock it restricts the boost to 7.5psi by venting one of the 10.5psi sides to atmosphere, also on manual cars it restricts the boost to 7.5psi below 3k rpms(i think its the manuals).

[mikec]

Common reasons for low boost pressure:

* blocked exhaust

 

* wastegate flapper/door inside turbo has fallen off. If you remove the exhaust downpipe from the rear of the turbo you'll see a cover plate... inside that is the actual wastegate. It's just a metal disk welded onto that lever that sticks out the side of the turbo. Sometimes it falls off... and the exhaust bypasses the turbo so the turbo is useless

 

* Air hoses between turbo and engine have a massive leak. Or the intercooler (if present) is damaged and leaks.

 

* On 86-earlier cars, the dash boost guage is driven by a firewall mounted pressure sensor. If the vac hose feeding that is busted, missing, or plugged, you'll get no indicated boost. That hose actually goes to a small solenoid... the solenoid connects the pressure sensor to either the engine (to measure vacuum/boost) or to the outside atmosphere to measure barometric air pressure (altitude). The ECU controls that solenoid; it's supposed to flip to "outside air pressure" about once every two minutes for just a second or two.

 

* totally mis-installed wastegate actutator. This is the vacuum hose operated thing bolted to the front of the turbo. Boost pressure pushes on an internal diaphragm, against a spring... and when it's strong enough it "wins" and the spring starts collapsing. The pushrod extends towards the rear of the car, opening the wastegate door to limit boost pressure. You'll notice a threaded section on that pushrod... if too many threads are visible the "pre-load" is missing and the pushrod extends too quickly. If you remove the lock wire from the lever, and then slide the pushrod off the lever, see how "short" the pushrod ends up. Normally it's about an eighth of an inch "too short" to reach the lever (with the lever pushed towards the front of the car). This is the "pre-load." If you don't have enough pre-load, use that threaded section (loosen the jam/locknut first) to shorten the pushrod a bit. Then re-install and try again. It's fairly difficult to pull on the pushrod to get that last 1/8th of an inch out of it... the spring is STRONG. A source of 7 to 8 psi air pressure pumped into the actuator helps a ton.

 

mike c.

[StrayWolf83]

Thanks for all the advise.

 

The wastegate is currently set up with the vacuum lines running directly to the OVCP pipe i sliced in.

(See Photo)

 

 

I will have a few things to look at and try out tonight when I get home from work.

 

FYI about the 14B turbo I have. It is a rebuilt 14B placed in a 12A housing from member Scotty Dont.

The exhaust connection point is the 12A and the front casing (leading to the air filter and IC hoses) are off a DSM 1 setup. The wastegate and connect bracket for the wastegate is fabercated in place. Not your usual wastegate with a thread end of the rod for adjustments. It does not have any bends to the rod as do the normal Starion/Conquest wastegates. It is just one straight peice of metal rod. (I'll try to get a photo of the wastegate set-up tonight)

 

Until then ,... I will take a look at everyones suggestion to see what might be wrong.

 

Thanks

[83_project_toy]

Thanks for all the advise.

 

The wastegate is currently set up with the vacuum lines running directly to the OVCP pipe i sliced in.

(See Photo)

 

 

I will have a few things to look at and try out tonight when I get home from work.

 

FYI about the 14B turbo I have. It is a rebuilt 14B placed in a 12A housing from member Scotty Dont.

The exhaust connection point is the 12A and the front casing (leading to the air filter and IC hoses) are off a DSM 1 setup. The wastegate and connect bracket for the wastegate is fabercated in place. Not your usual wastegate with a thread end of the rod for adjustments. It does not have any bends to the rod as do the normal Starion/Conquest wastegates. It is just one straight peice of metal rod. (I'll try to get a photo of the wastegate set-up tonight)

 

Until then ,... I will take a look at everyones suggestion to see what might be wrong.

 

Thanks

 

looking at that and what you said i'm going to have to blame it on wastegate/arm. the rod length could be wrong or the angle in general is not letting the valve in the housing to work properly

[shift1313]

yeah i think the angle is going to be all wrong for your setup but i dont know for sure. there is a small circular housing on the back of the turbo with 3 bolts, if you pull that off you can see the wastegate. you may want to check it out and apply pressure to the actuator and see if it opens/closes properly. If you need to you can come down here to blacksburg and grab my IC 12a housing and wastgate and give it a shot(but i need it back:))

[StrayWolf83]

I think you are correct guys!!!

After serious investigation last night i do believe the angle of the wastegate is causing my issue. (see attachment)

 

I going to play around with the wastegate tonight to see if i can come up with a solution before pulling the 14B turbo off and put back on the non-IC 12A to run the car. (I can then run the car and work out the 14B issues later)

 

Shift1313 ... I appericate the offer... might try your IC 12A if i can't work things out.

 

Thanks again gang.

[shift1313]

I think you are correct guys!!!

After serious investigation last night i do believe the angle of the wastegate is causing my issue. (see attachment)

 

I going to play around with the wastegate tonight to see if i can come up with a solution before pulling the 14B turbo off and put back on the non-IC 12A to run the car. (I can then run the car and work out the 14B issues later)

 

Shift1313 ... I appericate the offer... might try your IC 12A if i can't work things out.

 

Thanks again gang.

 

 

i noticed in your pic that the part you have spliced in doesnt have clamps on both sides. Are there clamps there now?

 

if you need it just let me know, my car isnt going anywhere. You can borrow the comp housing, wastegate actuator and ovc pipe if you want.

[StrayWolf83]

i noticed in your pic that the part you have spliced in doesnt have clamps on both sides. Are there clamps there now?

 

if you need it just let me know, my car isnt going anywhere. You can borrow the comp housing, wastegate actuator and ovc pipe if you want.

------

 

YES, the picture shows a few of the clamps are off the splicd in peice over the valve cover.

Sorry about that,...

 

I actually took a few of the clamps off when I came back from my test drive. I had to removed a few clamps so I could pull the valve cover off to retight the head bolt down and check the value cleanances.

 

I just placed everything back together quickly to show everyone the set-up. (Sorry gang)

 

Tonight I am going to reset the Wastegate's position to make the rod more paralel with the wastegate valve on the turbo exhaust. See if that helps a little.

[shift1313]

before you put the wastegate actuator arm on move the arm on the turbo by hand so you can get a feel for the range. That way you will know if the wastegate actuator is holding the actual wastegate shut.

 

im not sure if you can get the access plate off the back of the turbo with the down pipe on but if all else fails you can get a good look at things to make sure they arent broken by removing that cover.

 

good luck with it!

[StrayWolf83]

Ok Gang....

 

I seems I have no luck with this car.

Started it up Saturday after reinstalling the (know to be good) working wastegate.

The wastagate is now leveled out with the exhaust connection and moving freely/easily. Attached all the IC piping and tightened everything down. Started the car and bam... fuel leak off a hard line fitting.

Long story short.... I fixed the Fuel leak and started it up again today (monday).

 

NOW here is what i got ....

- Idles good (800-900rpm) = 10 degree above center.

- Air Fuel Ratio great = dead middle of gauge at idle.

- Started to drive her around the block = the minute I gain boost the AFR looses all reading on the gauge, car bucks/stalls, and loss of power. Let up on the gas and the AFR gauge goes back to normal reading.

- Add more gas / power the boost gauge drops spikes to 0psi, and the above process starts over with bucking/stalling

- let the car idle everything is normal.

- did notice the boost gauge showing at idle to be 4-5psi under 0psi. That is not normal=right??

(My 1989 TTA would always be at 15-17psi under 0psi when at idle.) When I place the car in gear the boost will drop to 10psi under 0psi.

 

I'm at a loss.... No vacuum leaks I can find, idle & timing good, injector are firing great, fuel pressure is 40 psi.

 

Once everything cools, I'm going to pull the turbo tonight and install the original 12A back in to see what I get.

[shift1313]

just for clarification the vac wouldnt be in pressure. it should be in inches of mercury or in Hg. If you tell someone you have 15psi below 0 they will thing your crazy:)

 

you might be at the stage where I am. What IC do you have on there? have you pressure tested it? maybe its leaking from the ic. i think my car is leaking but my boost gauge would hit 6psi before i had a problem. maybe you have a tear in one of the lines you arent aware of. I think you can pressure test your IC if you cut an old tube and use clamps to hold the tube on the IC and the schraider valve to fill the tube and see if the pressure leaks down and from where(soapy water).