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Need some input on a front splitter I'm going to bring to market.


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#41 verde2002

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 11:49 PM

View PostMotoCam360, on 10 April 2012 - 11:43 PM, said:

In reference to one of the posts from another member implying that MC360 was following this thread and beat Burton to the market - that simply isn't true and we would never consider doing business this way.  As you can see in the time/date stamp of our prototype photo, we were already done prototyping before this thread ever got off the ground.

Burton is correct that we only have plans for the '88-'89 air dam splitter at this time.

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My apologies on that fact. It was an asumption I had made and it was obviously incorrect.





#42 Burton

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 11:43 AM

View PostMotoCam360, on 10 April 2012 - 11:43 PM, said:

In reference to one of the posts from another member implying that MC360 was following this thread and beat Burton to the market - that simply isn't true and we would never consider doing business this way.  As you can see in the time/date stamp of our prototype photo, we were already done prototyping before this thread ever got off the ground.

Burton is correct that we only have plans for the '88-'89 air dam splitter at this time.

Posted Image


Well, I did post about making these much earlier than this thread, so we can't go by the dates of your prototype VS when this thread started. In fact, I think it was about a week after the original thread that I posted in, I saw you were working on a prototype. I'm guessing we both saw that thread and both realized there was interest for a non-carbon fiber splitter, and both got to R&Ding one. I doubt anyone tried to beat anyone else to market, just two vendors who saw a similar interest and decided to make similar parts at around the same time. You just got your R&D done first.


It's all good. We can call it even for you accusing me of "copying" your fog light covers a while back, and trying to say I made them with less than quality standards.


Personally, I think it's funny that people would expect only one vendor to carry particular products. McD's, Burger King and Wendy's all sell burgers. Some people prefer one over the other, just as some may perfer motocams waterjet cut splitter or the funky radius on the sides, over my jig sawn splitter with tapered sides. Some people may rather have mine because it is less expensive and is still a quality looking part. It's all a matter of taste, and as with burgers, some people may prefer mine over Motocam's or vice versa.


All of my products are things similar to other parts others have offered before. If I see something that looks cool and sells, then I try to make a similar item, but only if I can seel it for less than what's out there. All of my products have been made by just seeing a cool part on someones car. Many years ago I saw a pic of a SQ with fog covers and noticed in the pic the hardware was hidden with Snap Caps. At the time, I don't even think Motocam was on the boards much then, and there were deffinately no fog covers for sale at the time. I had a bunch of Lexan and Snap Caps, and just started cutting and fitting parts until I had a product that fit well. Once I had a nice looking product for myself there was lots of interest in me selling them and nobody else at the time who was selling them, so I started selling them. I made my first splitter in 05, but was deffinately not the first. I had seen a pic of one on a SQ, and thought it looked pretty cool, so I made one for my car. Now, I'm going to make them for other cars. I deffinately wasn't the first to sell OEM style reproduction Conquest decals, but I had the equipment to make them, and was able to sell them for nearly half of what everyone else was. It not only helps me make money, but it allows the people in the community to not have to pay the high prices of a vendor that has a monopoly. I never physically get a competitor's product in my hands to copy. I just see an idea, and engineer the product myself. Any similarity in design is because that's the most proper, cost-effective way to design that praticuallar part, and is about the same way any other vendor would probably design their's too. I spent 13 years working the the automotive tooling industry and also have my Journeyman's mold making card, so I know what it takes to R&D a new part all on my own without having to phisically copy another vendor's product.

For instance, the wife just got a Kia Sorento. I saw a guy selling mesh grille insert kits similar to kits I sell for other cars. He is the only guy selling them for Sorentos and wants almost $100. I know that it's maybe $40 worth of mesh stock, and a half hour of time to make each set, so I'm going to make my own kit using the wife's car for prototyping, then be able to sell the same thing for about $60 or $70. Frankly, I'd be able to sell them for $50 and turn a small profit still, but at $70, I can make more money, and still be 30% cheaper than any other compareable product for that vehicle.


I welcome any competition from any vendor. I'm fairly confident I can make a quality part for a lower price, otherwise, I wouldn't bring it to market. I may sell 2, or I may sell 20. Either way, I'll be making some money and puting out quality parts, which in the end, is all I want to do as a vendor. If they don't sell at all, then I'm not worried. I've got dozens of other products for SQs and other cars that do sell real well, so I won't be going without dinner anytime soon. Maybe I'll go eat some burgers....

Edited by Burton, 11 April 2012 - 11:46 AM.

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#43 Caliber308

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 12:05 PM

Don't like it, and don't think it adds anything to the looks or performance of our cars. After all, we are members of Starquestclub.com that own Conquests and Starions, Most with 4 cylinder Turbocharged engines that don't do 200 mph in the straights. After all, we are not NASCAR, ALMS or Daytona prototype cars. Looks tacky, it almost looks like you are on the fringes of creating the same thing the "Ricer car" owners do with their Huge rear wings and ground effects that don't accomplish anything except to make the car look faster than it really is.

Burton, Before you start slamming me for my comments. You posted a new product. So, if some members don't like it, it is their privilege to say they don't like it and it is not up to you to say that you don't want any negative comments towards your post. After all, you posted something for sale in a public forum and asked opinions about it ;)

Just my opinion,
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Edited by Caliber308, 11 April 2012 - 01:06 PM.

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#44 Burton

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 01:20 PM

View PostCaliber308, on 11 April 2012 - 12:05 PM, said:

Don't like it, and don't think it adds anything to the looks or performance of our cars. After all, we are members of Starquestclub.com that own Conquests and Starions, Most with 4 cylinder Turbocharged engines that don't do 200 mph in the straights. After all, we are not NASCAR, ALMS or Daytona prototype cars. Looks tacky, it almost looks like you are on the fringes of creating the same thing the "Ricer car" owners do with their Huge rear wings and ground effects that don't accomplish anything except to make the car look faster than it really is.

Burton, Before you start slamming me for my comments. You posted a new product. So, if some members don't like it, it is their privilege to say they don't like it and it is not up to you to say that you don't want any negative comments towards your post. After all, you posted something for sale in a public forum ;)

Just my opinion,
Bill


It's all good. You (or anyone else) can say whatever they want about it. Negative comments in a thread like this don't help establish the part interest, they just show everyone's entitled to their opinion. You think it looks tacky, but apparently that's not the opinion of everyone, otherwise this thread would be filled with nothing but comments like yours, instead of yours being the only one.


Don't like it? Don't buy it. I don't make these parts for the people who don't like them, I make them for the people who do. And there are plenty of people who want my products- I wouldn't bring them to market if there wasn't. I may not ever sell one to you, but I can be sure that people will want them. Again, if there's a part that people want and it's easy for me to bring to market and can be a profitable part, I'm gonna bring it. Why wouldn't I? If enough people wanted big decals of Obama on their hood, I'd make em. I hate the guy and think something like that would look awful on a car, but if people want it and there's decent money to be made, I'd make it. Want your dog painted to look like a skunk? Get him to sit still long enough and make it worth my time, and I'll do it.

It's simple economics. If there's a demand for something, someone will be there to act on it.

Edited by Burton, 11 April 2012 - 01:24 PM.

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#45 Mike_StarionTSI

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 02:52 PM

View PostCaliber308, on 11 April 2012 - 12:05 PM, said:

Don't like it, and don't think it adds anything to the looks or performance of our cars. After all, we are members of Starquestclub.com that own Conquests and Starions, Most with 4 cylinder Turbocharged engines that don't do 200 mph in the straights. After all, we are not NASCAR, ALMS or Daytona prototype cars. Looks tacky, it almost looks like you are on the fringes of creating the same thing the "Ricer car" owners do with their Huge rear wings and ground effects that don't accomplish anything except to make the car look faster than it really is.

Burton, Before you start slamming me for my comments. You posted a new product. So, if some members don't like it, it is their privilege to say they don't like it and it is not up to you to say that you don't want any negative comments towards your post. After all, you posted something for sale in a public forum and asked opinions about it ;)

Just my opinion,
Bill

I'd like to point out that the splitter functionality comment is false. Do some research please :)

http://www.aprperfor...ask=view&id=174

"This high pressure (and lower speed) air, when compared to the air speed above the car, will create situation where there is increased lift over the entire car. Typically, most production street cars, when traveling at higher speeds (60mph+) produce large amounts of positive lift."

Posted Image





You dont need to go such extreme speeds to make it function. Its all in aerodynamics. Now, is it going to be as functional as people who have access too wind tunnels and are specialist? Maybe not, but will it function? Most likely.
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#46 Tim_C.

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 04:18 PM

It will function, but I think Bill's point is the function isn't needed, and would tend to lesson gas mileage with more downforce for no appearant reason. Let's face it, this is for the look it adds with few of us actually gaining a function that we don't already have or need.

Still, I noticed a lot of us are more into looks than functionality, so there is a market for it. Most of us would like both looks and functionality to a point. There is a point where added pieces on the car start to make it look too busy and a bit ricey, but that is up to the beholder I guess. So many of our cars are different with their own personality already, that I doubt any of us wll truly know what adding the splitter will do for our look until after we drill the holes and mount it to find out. We could vice grip it on and if we don't like it, put it back up for sale. So many of our cars are sitting at a different height with different wheel and tire combos. All of which will tend to augment or work against the look of the splitter depending on the combo. If you have an '83 or custom hood, or hatch wing, mud flaps, etc.., it could look better or worse with the splitter too.

Mitusbishi got it right with the OEM look. Spring heights, tire comobs, etc.. A lot of us think the lowered look is better yet, but I only lower for the functionality of a lower center of gravity which increases handling and performance, and mileage in itself, and the fact that all lowering springs are stiffer too. I'm not caught up in the looks that add mega cost at this stage in my life. Not that this is very expensive. It seems to be quite reasonably priced. I have a family now, and things that are more important, but that doesn't mean everyone should approach like me either. I love to see perfect looking Quests like Sotty's at Mesquite last year and others too. I just don't have the time or money for it myself. I have several cars that I could sell to make one perfect, but I'm content to drive them the way they are with small improvements for looks if and when I can do it.

I guess my question if I did want one is what is the difference in looks between the one and two piece options. Functionality difference? Are you going to offer the little corner diffusers like on the Hyundai race car in Forza 4? :)

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#47 Burton

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:54 AM

Well, I'm not going to get into a debate about form over function, but the main reason I'm making these is for looks. Since most people only want the look, and don't like spending a lot of money, I want to concentrate on the 2 piece part that may or may not add performance, and be more cost effective. The bigger, more solid 1 piece design should add performance, but I will not be spending thousands of dollars doing wind tunnel testing to prove that it does. If I offer both styles, then the choice of form over function can be left up to the customer.


All that being said, the ABS came in, and I will be starting in on making these today and hope to have 2 88/89 airdam units ready to sell early in the week. I am also making a faltty splitter for a member which will be done this week. I just have a loose flatty airdam I'm going off of, so I want to make sure it actually fits properly on an airdam mounted on a car before I give my blessing to sell more of them. I'll send the one I'm making to him and if it fits good, then we're golden, but if not, then I will have to make whatever changes, make another set, and test fit that. Once there's a good fit, then they will be on the market.

The 86/87 style airdam design is what I'm going to work on next, so hopefully I'll have that style ready to go in a couple weeks.


In the end people can debate the form over function, or can be haters on how they look. But, the fact remains that there are people who like the look and people who want to buy them. If there weren't, then motocam wouldn't have sold 6 in less than a week, and I wouldn't have any interest in the ones I'm making.

I suppose there is something to be said about some people thinking too much stuff on a car gets clunky or cluttered, but it can go the other way. I've got so much ricer stuff on my car that I'm running out of room to come up with new stuff to slap on there and wish I had more. Some people may think it makes my car look bad, but I love the way my car looks and since I'm the one who owns my car, and I get plenty of compliments on it, I wouldn't have it any other way.


So, you guys out there thinking about these splitters, don't listen to the haters, or even me. Listen to yourself and make YOUR car the way YOU want it.
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#48 DryBear

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 05:42 PM

Aside from aerodynamics and looks, would the front splitter help protect the airdam, or make it more prone to damage?

#49 Komeuppance

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 01:53 AM

It will make it more prone to scraping/damage, it sticks out further and decreases your angle of approach.

BTW, I lowered my car for lower center of gravity and aerodynamic stability at high speeds... FTW.  Yes, I am at those speeds often... LOL.  Factory spec is rally height, and hard cornering on the softer springs produces way too much body roll.

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#50 Burton

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 09:19 AM

View PostKomeuppance, on 16 April 2012 - 01:53 AM, said:

It will make it more prone to scraping/damage, it sticks out further and decreases your angle of approach.


-Robert

I disagree.

Yes it will stick out further and decrease your angle of approach, but the splitter will take the impact and not the airdam. Plus, with the splitter being bolted to the whole bottom edge of the airdam, it actually acts as extra support of the airdam. The 1/4" ABS is much stronger than the thin urethane of the airdam, so if anything the splitter will be the first to hit anythinmg and be able to protect the airdam by taking most of the impact.

The splitter I had on my old car (pic of the black car) stuck out WAY far, and I scraped that splitter a bunch of times on parking blocks, entrances to parking lots, etc, and after many months the airdam was in perfect shape, but the bottom of the splitter on the front edge and corners was scraped to hell. You couldn't see it because it was on the underside of the splitter, and it didn't damage the splitter other than the cosmetic scrapes on the underside, similar to what can be seen on the bottom edge of many airdams that have gone thru all that scraping without having a splitter to take the damage. I don't know about the rest of you, but I'd rather gradually sand down a splitter that is replaceable for $100, than gradually sand down the front edge of an airdam that's about $400 new- if you can even find one.


Now, if you plow into a curb at 40, then it probably won't help much, but during all the lower speed hits and scrapes the splitter will help more than it will hurt.

Edited by Burton, 16 April 2012 - 09:33 AM.

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#51 Komeuppance

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 09:12 PM

This splitter design is mounted solely to the airdam, which transfers all the force it receives to the air dam.  It will also reduce the flexibility, transferring more stress to the mounting points.

-Robert

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#52 Burton

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 09:14 AM

I still disagree... I have ran SQs with and without splitters and have found the splitter seemed to help protect the airdam even tho the splitter was huge and prone to scrape things. Period.

Think about it, would you want the impact of a 2" rock hitting a direct spot on the airdam, or do you want the impact from that 2" rock absorbed across 33" and back 2 or 3 inches of ABS and distributed over 4 mounting locations?
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#53 87quest_stv

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 10:25 AM

I use to run a mini motorcycle shop and the majority of our business was online. midsouthminimoto.com. I've since sold the company but when I was running it. I came to the realization that You can't make everyone happy. Doesn't matter how hard you try. So I learned to just let stuff roll off my back and concentrate on the customers I was helping. The majority of my stress came in the racing circuit when I started Our own racing association. Didn't matter how fair I made the rules. the people that wanted to try to bend them were the ones that complained.  There will always be competition.( I personally bought all my competition out as there wasn't a huge market for Italian made minimotos in the USA to begin with)
And the winner is the one who can provide a quality product at an affordable price.
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#54 Komeuppance

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 10:45 AM

Its basic engineering, you're strengthening one area without triangulation or boxing in the structure.  That is going to transfer more stress to the unstrenghtened areas, the mounting points.  Similar to an incomplete roll cage.

-Robert

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#55 racer_amx

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 11:11 AM

View PostBurton, on 17 April 2012 - 09:14 AM, said:

I still disagree... I have ran SQs with and without splitters and have found the splitter seemed to help protect the airdam even tho the splitter was huge and prone to scrape things. Period.

Think about it, would you want the impact of a 2" rock hitting a direct spot on the airdam, or do you want the impact from that 2" rock absorbed across 33" and back 2 or 3 inches of ABS and distributed over 4 mounting locations?
+1
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#56 Mike_StarionTSI

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 12:17 PM

I see what Robert is saying. Sure little scrapes will not harm the airdam cosmetically, but if you happen to hit a median or something, the airdam has more tension throughout those 4 mounting spots. Which will be the only outlet of stress for the splitter since it cant flex. That being said, those 4 high stress spots will be more prone to breaking, and somewhat more likely.

if you scrape the airdam directly, it'll just give way for flex and stress relief. The stabilizer bars should help with that issue but doesn't solve it entirely.  

....I'm still in :)
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#57 Caliber308

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 10:27 AM

View PostKomeuppance, on 16 April 2012 - 01:53 AM, said:

It will make it more prone to scraping/damage, it sticks out further and decreases your angle of approach.


-Robert

True.A lot of the members who have their cars lowered might buy one of these. So, what it going to happen if they install a splitter on the bottom of the Air dam.... just for looks. Maybe Burton will start making 88/89 Air dams, and offer a 25% discount on them to members who have lowered cars that install his Splitter? I can see it now....The first time members who installed it with a lowered car and try to go up a steep driveway, hit a pothole, drive over a dip in the road, drive over a speed bump or pull up too fast to a curb stop, will have to replace the entire Air dam at a price of $300.00. Why? Because the splitter is bolted directly to the Air dam, sticks out farther and will tear the hell out of the Air dam. But, it sure looked good prior to doing this :huh:

I don't "hate" Burton or his splitter even though he called me and other members "haters" that posted a differing view about his offering.Everything has it's proper place. Cars that have a splitter installed on them are lowered and race around a flat race track at high speeds with the Splitter installed within 1 or 2 inches of the ground: (NASCAR,ALMS and Grand Am cars for example).Why would you want to install a splitter on a stock height Starquest? Or for that matter a lowered one??? I just don't think it is practical or astatically reasonable for street use on our cars. Just for looks :huh: Maybe a hood decal of President Obama would be better(Burton said he would do it if the demand was there), since it would not destroy the Air dam :lol: Burton, When you posted that you would create anything for money to sell your products to the membership on Starquestclub.com or anywhere else...That is where members and guests on this site that are reading your posts, (some with years of knowledge about Starquests), lost their creditably in you ;)

"You can fool some of the people some of the time. But you can't fool all of the people all of the time"

To the membership: Over the past ten years of being a member on Starquestclub.com, I have tried to stay out of things like this. But, when I feel that a new product offered by a company or a member on this site does nothing more than to take your money. I will speak up.

I am not a cold hearted SOB. Just ask all of the members who attended Mesquite 2011.Never lied to them, and I am not lieing now.

Just mine, and others opinion about this offering,
Bill

Edited by Caliber308, 18 April 2012 - 01:59 PM.

87 ESI-R: J.E.s 8 to 1 .040 over, Tims roller cam, Roller rockers,Marnal Head(ported and polished) Scheider HD valvesprings, SS Valves,Zero bal,TDO5H 17 C, K.V., OVC HP, Turbo X/S RFL, Aeromotive FPR, 950/1150 injectors, Walbro , MAF-T, AEM UEGO, Summit dig. CD Ignition. box , Mallory 67k coil,D2s.

#58 Burton

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 11:03 AM

View PostCaliber308, on 18 April 2012 - 10:27 AM, said:


True.A lot of the members who have their cars lowered might buy one of these. So, what it going to happen if they install a splitter on the bottom of the Air dam.... just for looks. Maybe Burton will start making 88/89 Air dams, and offer a 25% discount on them to members who have lowered cars that install his Splitter? I can see it now....The first time members who installed it with a lowered car and try to go up a steep driveway, hit a pothole, drive over a dip in the road, drive over a speed bump or pull up too fast to a curb stop, will have to replace the entire Air dam at a price of $300.00. Why? Because the splitter is bolted directly to the Air dam, sticks out farther and will tear the hell out of the Air dam. But, it sure looked good prior to doing this

Funny, when I had a splitter I hit a steep driveway, hit a pothole, drove over dips in the road, drove over speed bumps or pulled up too fast to a curb stop, and while the splitter got scaped up a little, the airdam remained damage free. Maybe I was just lucky tho. Look, if you hit anything hard, splitter or not, you're going to ruin your airdam. If you bump a parking curb or a road dip at 30 MPH, there isn't a splitter or anything else that will save your airdam. If you do the same thing at 5-10 MPH, you might damage the airdam without a splitter, but with a splitter your airdam will be protected better.  

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I don't "hate" Burton or his splitter even though he called me and other members "haters" that posted a differing view about his offering.

Would you say you "like" or "hate" the look of the splitter. From what you said here and in previous posts it sounds to me like you hate it, and therefore, you would be a hater.

Quote

Everything has it's proper place. Cars that have a splitter installed on them are lowered and race around a flat race track at high speeds with the Splitter installed within 1 or 2 inches of the ground: (NASCAR,ALMS and Grand Am cars for example).Why would you want to install a splitter on a stock height Starquest? Or for that matter a lowered one??? I just don't think it is practical or astatically reasonable for street use on our cars. Just for looks

And looks are the main reason I'm offering these, I've said that many times. Look at all the other imports with big rear spoilers, ground effects kits, and all the other bolt on stuff that originated for race car performance, but now get used more for a certain look, not performance. People want their cars to look more aggressive or different from everyone elses car. I never claimed these added performance , and have only listed my experience with when I've had them on my own cars. I have been truthful and open about this whole process, and am only trying to help provide quality parts that some members deffinately want- otherwise they wouldn't sell. People in this community complain there aren't enough vendors or aftermarket parts for these cars, so I'm just trying to fill that void.

Quote

When you posted that you would create anything for money to sell your products to the membership on Starquestclub.com or anywhere else...That is where members and guests on this site that are reading your posts, (some with years of knowledge about Starquests), lost their creditably in you



This sort of negativity is what has driven away other possible vendors in the past who didn't care about the cars, only the profit.  While I do love to make a profit, I don't make much doing parts for these cars. It equates to about $15/hr for my time, which is $5 less an hour than my normal shop rate. I could be out painting show cars and making more money but I care about these cars and the community, and that's why I stay and continue to try to come up with quality products people want at a price a majority of the community can afford. If that takes away my credibility, then so be it. I offer parts for other types of cars and have yet to hear a single negative thing from them. If y'all don't want my offerings, I'm more than happy to concentrate my time making parts for those cars, and probably be able to make more money too.



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"You can fool some of the people some of the time. But you can't fool all of the people all of the time"


If anyone other than Bill thinks I am, or ever have been trying to "fool" anyone, plese speak up now. I consider myself an upstanding, truthful and fair vendor. If any of y'all other than Bill think otherwise, please speak up now.


Quote

To the membership: Over the past ten years of being a member on Starquestclub.com, I have tried to stay out of things like this. But, when I feel that a new product offered by a company or a member on this site does nothing more than to take your money. I will speak up.


Anyone else feel like I'm just here to take your money? Again, let me know. I'll be happy to take my products elsewhere. I'm here to provide quality parts for a fair price to help me make a living. In fact, many of my products are similar to other products available, because the other products were way more expensive than I think they should have been and I could offer something similar for less. I am here to try and help people out, not rip them off.


Quote

I am not a cold hearted SOB. Just ask all of the members who attended Mesquite 2011.Never lied to them, and I am not lieing now.

Just mine, and others opinion about this offering,
Bill

Personally, I think you are a cold-hearted SOB, well, at least a SOB. You and I have always had our run ins, and I kinda hoped when we saw you come back to the sites you were banned from with your new "kinder, gentler" Cal, that you would be a changed man. I didn't hold my breath, and I'm glad because you obviously can't teach an old dog new tricks.


Aside from all the BS....

The materials are here and I have started cutting some, but I got a chance opprotunity this week that I had to jump on. I got a call to collaborate on the paint/body on a Hot Rod Power Tour car that a friend has a tight deadline on. That has added about 7 hours a day on top of my part-time RV gig and my internet sales, so I didn't get to work on them much at all this week. I do have the whole weekend open tho, so I will be finishing them then and should have pics up by the end of the weekend.


Not sure if I will carry this on much tho now. I will at least make the flatty splitter and 2 88/89 splitters I'm commited to, but from there, I'm not sure. Frankly, Cal's comments totally killed my motivation on this product, so I may just not bother after that.
Mark
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#59 verde2002

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 12:03 PM

The large majority of the Starquest community is excited about the items you offer for our cars. Don't let a few negative comments discourage you.

#60 yzrider

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 01:28 PM

I love the things you offer and although have not bought anything from you yet I am looking forward to getting a good bit of products from you! Haters are gonna hate. I dont get why so many people on this forum attack vendors. Hell even in this thread an attack was thrown motocams way. There will be a time when there are no vendors for our cars and we have ourselves to blame if we keep attacking the few people who actually give a rats behind about our cars.
Forza 4 the world where starions start up and never break.

1jz/r154 stock twins for now.




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