tux Posted May 8, 2013 Report Share Posted May 8, 2013 (edited) I've been working on a start up map for my aem ems-4 . wondering if anyone with more experience tuning would mind to give it a once over . Edited May 8, 2013 by tux Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technology Posted May 9, 2013 Report Share Posted May 9, 2013 take a screen shot of the maps and post them up here. Or maybe send them to me. If you PM me, I can take a look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tux Posted May 9, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 9, 2013 I can't seem to get Cyl 1 to fire. I've got a 4-1 CAS/CAM Wheel (Magna Distributor) http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/6931/crankcas.pnghttp://img571.imageshack.us/img571/8259/coilinject.png Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technology Posted May 9, 2013 Report Share Posted May 9, 2013 Well, there are some things I am wondering about with all that. First, it's AEMTuner which I don't have experience with, but maybe it's because you are offline and you took the screen capture, or something else, but throttle should be 0%, so set your throttle range first of all. And I don't know if it's because the car is off, but down in the lower left, shouldn't the coils be set to "ON"? Are you using 4 coils? If you can't get coil one to fire, can you get the others to fire? Also, I don't know why the ignition timing is -17 degrees. Maybe try 10 degrees instead. Also, if you aren't able to start it, you can disable things like Knock control or idle (if you have idle control) until you manage to get it started, then turn those things on when your base timing is all set and what not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tux Posted May 9, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 9, 2013 Well, there are some things I am wondering about with all that. First, it's AEMTuner which I don't have experience with, but maybe it's because you are offline and you took the screen capture, or something else, but throttle should be 0%, so set your throttle range first of all. It's possible that my friend was stepping on the pedal at the time of my screenshot And I don't know if it's because the car is off, but down in the lower left, shouldn't the coils be set to "ON"? Are you using 4 coils? If you can't get coil one to fire, can you get the others to fire? None fire, there is provision for Coils 1, 1b, 2, 2b, etc. I have Coils 1 - 4 on, the others are set to off. Coils #1B – #4B are paired outputs for Coils #1 - #4. In other words, they are the same output but each firing event can be phased and trimmed independently of the other. Also, I don't know why the ignition timing is -17 degrees. Maybe try 10 degrees instead. Also, if you aren't able to start it, you can disable things like Knock control or idle (if you have idle control) until you manage to get it started, then turn those things on when your base timing is all set and what not. The knock control is ticked off for the coils and unfortunately cannot be disabled for the injectors, but I don't have the knock sensor configured yet. I haven't set the base timing yet. That's actually the "step" I'm on. I'm not trying to start her, but get the base timing synced and initial pickup to work. I think i phrased it wrong. My coils and injectors aren't plugged in... but I should see (if I'm right, that the coil1 will flash when it's supposed to fire and cam/crank should have some sort of count. Page 142 - http://www.aemelectronics.com/Images/Products/Installation%20Instructions%2030-6905.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technology Posted May 9, 2013 Report Share Posted May 9, 2013 It won't start counting until STAT SYNC comes on. You will see cranking RPM, then stat sync comes on and then it'll fire injectors and coils. You should plug 'em in and see if it starts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott87star Posted May 9, 2013 Report Share Posted May 9, 2013 Assuming you've cranked it over multiple revolutions its clearly not "seeing" the cam signal. You have a crank tooth display, does it have a cam equivalent? Probably the best thing to do is verify you have a cam signal with a volt meter. You can slide a pin or sewing needle into the harness of the cam signal and connect a voltmeter between it and ground. With the key on crank it over by hand and look for the 0-5V transition as the cam window passes the sensor. When the window is under the sensor the output is 5V (3-5 is normal) and the rest of the time the voltage will be very low, around 0.2 V. Same for the crank, not a bad idea to verify that although from the graph in your screen shot it appears to be OK. In all of the CAS's I've tested its very common for one of the sensors to put out 5V and the other will need a "pull up" resistor to work properly so if you test as above and see no voltage jump when the window should be passing under the sensor you'll have to figure out how to wire that in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott87star Posted May 9, 2013 Report Share Posted May 9, 2013 The other thing I notice is you've got the crank rising and falling both set to ON, you should pick one or the other. It may be confusing to the computer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technology Posted May 9, 2013 Report Share Posted May 9, 2013 I had a plug-n-play AEM ecu for a 1G DSM and used a 1G CAS which is basically the same as what you're using. To get started, I loaded the startup map they provide for DSMs and all I had to do was adjust fuel and set my sensors and TPS range. I wonder if there is a pre-loaded map for what you have (basically a DSM map). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tux Posted May 9, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 9, 2013 The other thing I notice is you've got the crank rising and falling both set to ON, you should pick one or the other. It may be confusing to the computer. I tried with it off, but AEM support told me I should have both crank rising and falling on, but only one edge for cam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tux Posted May 9, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 9, 2013 I had a plug-n-play AEM ecu for a 1G DSM and used a 1G CAS which is basically the same as what you're using. To get started, I loaded the startup map they provide for DSMs and all I had to do was adjust fuel and set my sensors and TPS range. I wonder if there is a pre-loaded map for what you have (basically a DSM map). Isn't the 1g CAS a vr type ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tux Posted May 10, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2013 (edited) Assuming you've cranked it over multiple revolutions its clearly not "seeing" the cam signal. You have a crank tooth display, does it have a cam equivalent? Probably the best thing to do is verify you have a cam signal with a volt meter. You can slide a pin or sewing needle into the harness of the cam signal and connect a voltmeter between it and ground. With the key on crank it over by hand and look for the 0-5V transition as the cam window passes the sensor. When the window is under the sensor the output is 5V (3-5 is normal) and the rest of the time the voltage will be very low, around 0.2 V. Same for the crank, not a bad idea to verify that although from the graph in your screen shot it appears to be OK. In all of the CAS's I've tested its very common for one of the sensors to put out 5V and the other will need a "pull up" resistor to work properly so if you test as above and see no voltage jump when the window should be passing under the sensor you'll have to figure out how to wire that in. So... When test just the harness i get: 12v to pin 1 (power)5v to pin 25v to pin 3earth - pin 4 with CAS connected I get 12v to pin 112v to pin 25v to pin 3earth to pin 4 rotating the engine yields no variation in voltage. Edited May 10, 2013 by tux Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technology Posted May 10, 2013 Report Share Posted May 10, 2013 there's the 12v in, ground, and the two outputs, one is crank, one is cam. I don't know which one is the cam and which one is the crank, but if you look inside and it's an optical disk-type, there will be four holes for the cam (I think) and two for the crank. (maybe the other way around, you better check). But ah, turning it slowly by hand probably won't do anything. You could take the distributor out and spin it with a drill at 400-600 rpm and watch the ECU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tux Posted May 10, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2013 with Assuming you've cranked it over multiple revolutions its clearly not "seeing" the cam signal. You have a crank tooth display, does it have a cam equivalent? Probably the best thing to do is verify you have a cam signal with a volt meter. You can slide a pin or sewing needle into the harness of the cam signal and connect a voltmeter between it and ground. With the key on crank it over by hand and look for the 0-5V transition as the cam window passes the sensor. When the window is under the sensor the output is 5V (3-5 is normal) and the rest of the time the voltage will be very low, around 0.2 V. Same for the crank, not a bad idea to verify that although from the graph in your screen shot it appears to be OK. In all of the CAS's I've tested its very common for one of the sensors to put out 5V and the other will need a "pull up" resistor to work properly so if you test as above and see no voltage jump when the window should be passing under the sensor you'll have to figure out how to wire that in. while running this test one sensor outputs up to 5v the other outputs 12v perhaps the cas is bad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tux Posted May 10, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2013 http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m131/mackaymanx/Magna%20Distributor/P1040246.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott87star Posted May 10, 2013 Report Share Posted May 10, 2013 (edited) That is the "shutter" version of the CAS and if you're watching either the cam or crank sensor output while rotating the engine and its not dropping to almost 0 volts when the shutter passes the optical sensor then it something is wrong. Looking at your pin designations I can see they are different than mine, double check to make sure you've got them correct. Mine is like the disk type like this one: http://picturehosting.com/images/oblique9881/windowsdist.jpg It's pinout is different, going clockwise looking at the installed dizzy I have crank, cam, power and ground. You may have the power in the wrong place but of course they may have also changed the pinout moving to the different style. If you double check the pinout and you've got it wired correctly and you're not getting voltage going from 5V or 12V to almost zero as you rotate the engine over then its likely bad. These sensors are not VR, they are optical. There is a little LED in the sensor that reads voltage when the window is open and reads no voltage when the window is shut, it does not matter how fast or slow you spin it. The stock Starquest ignition module IS a Variable Reluctor and it does matter how fast you spin them. Also, 5V or 12V sensor output, either is fine as long as it changes when rotating. Edited May 10, 2013 by scott87star Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott87star Posted May 10, 2013 Report Share Posted May 10, 2013 Also, the wire colors for mine are crank, green, cam, green with white stripe, power, yellow with red stripe and ground black. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tux Posted May 11, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 11, 2013 I'll be picking up an oscilloscope . the distributor may be bad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tux Posted May 16, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 16, 2013 turns out the distributor is bad, neither of the sensors are outputting a square wave. looks like i'll be in the market for another magna distributor or trying to figure out another crank/cam trigger setup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technology Posted May 16, 2013 Report Share Posted May 16, 2013 DSM CAS guts into the Magna distributor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tux Posted May 16, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 16, 2013 DSM CAS guts into the Magna distributor. I can't weld and have no access to a machine shop if any of those activities would be required . for such s conversion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott87star Posted May 16, 2013 Report Share Posted May 16, 2013 As I mentioned earlier I've seen that these occasionally need a "pull up" voltage, that is they don't actually put out a voltage on their own but can pull down an appropriately wired circuit. To test you need a power supply or even a battery, something that puts out in the range of 5-12V and a 1K ohm resistor. One end of the resistor goes to the power supply, the other to the output lead you want to test as well as your test device, be it scope or volt meter. At rest you should see whatever voltage the power supply is putting out, when you spin fast or slow (slow is easier to see with the volt meter) you should see the voltage dropping to near zero then back up to power supply voltage. Again, one end of the resistor to your power supply, the other end "t'ed" with your dizzy output you want to test and your test meter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tux Posted May 16, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 16, 2013 Hi Scott, I gave her a go with a pull up resistor, but I just got a flat voltage signal there was no square wave (drop to 0) when a vane passed through the hall sensor . I found replacement hall effect sensors available but nearly equal to the cost of importing another distributor. it's not worth repair. 2x hall sensor = 25$ + shipping. I may try and pickup a mighty max distributor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tux Posted June 8, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2013 Grabbed a new magna distributor. I'm getting cam and crank events just no stat sync. AEM is working with me on that. Tested coils and injectors using user 1 PW control and we are good. So still working out issues getting timing to sync Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technology Posted June 8, 2013 Report Share Posted June 8, 2013 AEM has great tech support, maybe you could even make a log of the starting attempts and send them the .cal file to review. I dunno, maybe they could help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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