350 HP

[pc85]

In the process of rebuilding an '85 Flatty, just had all the rust and undercarriage cleaned up. Next step is to take out the engine and do major overhaul. My goal is to make at least 350 HP, I already have TEP camshaft with hydaulic lifters, 3<racing intake, MSD ignition with 8 mm cables, Bosch high flow fuel pump, lightened flywheel, 2.5" ss exhuast, 87' intercoler, TEP hp kit with Turbo XS BOV. I plan on boring it out to .040 and putting in J E pistons, as well as a 19 C race turbo and run 18 PSI. I will be regulating with AEM air/fuel meter and O2 sensor. I'm not a mechanic but I like to drive fast so as far as engine knowledge I could use some advise and guidance. Any input would be appreciated.

 

Forgot to mention: Balancing shaft eliminated and non-jet head as well.

Edited October 21, 2009 by pc85

[JustPaus_88TSi]

A 19c at any PSI won't get you to 350rwhp on TBI.

 

Here's a nice example:

http://www.starquestclub.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=97256

 

 

 

Also, why would you bore that large? Bore it as minimal as possible so you still have that option if something happens and you need to bore it again in the future.

[jahjah]

In the process of rebuilding an '85 Flatty, just had all the rust and undercarriage cleaned up. Next step is to take out the engine and do major overhaul. My goal is to make at least 350 HP, I already have TEP camshaft with hydaulic lifters, 3<racing intake, MSD ignition with 8 mm cables, Bosch high flow fuel pump, lightened flywheel, 2.5" ss exhuast, 87' intercoler, TEP hp kit with Turbo XS BOV. I plan on boring it out to .040 and putting in J E pistons, as well as a 19 C race turbo and run 18 PSI. I will be regulating with AEM air/fuel meter and O2 sensor. I'm not a mechanic but I like to drive fast so as far as engine knowledge I could use some advise and guidance. Any input would be appreciated.

If you want peak hp. I'd go with some kinda of T3 turbo, not a MHI. and get a 3" not 2.5" exhaust

 

And you can monitor with AEM air/fuel meter and O2 sensor. but there is nothing there to regulate with. if you are trying to keep it simple I'd get a MAF-T or something of the sort in addition to that other stuff

[jonboyb]

JustPaus is spot on. Only bore what you need. You go 40 over and something happens down the road your block is unrebuildable (without serious $$$ for custom oversized pistons and dangerously thin cylinder walls).

 

The 19C will likely end up leaving you 100 RWHP short of your goal on throttlebody (given perfect conditions otherwise). Off the top of my head, my old red 88 that Mazarin bought made around 250 RWHP at 20 psi on a 19C.....and it was meticulously built and tuned. For reference, I didn't even hit 350 RWHP running a Super16G at 24 psi with MPI.

[Indiana]

You seem to be a TEP shopper, JE pistons are expensive. You do not get power from oversized pistons you should only ever go to the next size up that you need and its very likely your block would only need honed and you could use standard sized pistons. Forged pistons do come in standard sizes if you look hard enough but they do need more piston to wall clearance than a stock case piston uses that's why I mentioned you would need to have the block honed but not bored.

[mstieg]

3" exh. is very much needed to let it breathe out.

 

full 2.5" IC piping from turbo to throttle.

 

MPI - your choice of system and intake. Magna will do fine for cheapest.

 

Good header - equal length lowers spool and increase efficiency.

 

Bigger T3 or T4 turbo at 20-30psi OR the same S256 turbo as me at 15-20psi.

 

Assuming all else is up to snuff, you're there.

[pc85]

JustPaus is spot on. Only bore what you need. You go 40 over and something happens down the road your block is unrebuildable (without serious $$$ for custom oversized pistons and dangerously thin cylinder walls).

 

The 19C will likely end up leaving you 100 RWHP short of your goal on throttlebody (given perfect conditions otherwise). Off the top of my head, my old red 88 that Mazarin bought made around 250 RWHP at 20 psi on a 19C.....and it was meticulously built and tuned. For reference, I didn't even hit 350 RWHP running a Super16G at 24 psi with MPI.

 

If I can get there with just .030 over and keep things simpler, I'll take your advice. Thanks for the input.

[pc85]

A 19c at any PSI won't get you to 350rwhp on TBI.

 

Here's a nice example:

http://www.starquestclub.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=97256

 

 

 

Also, why would you bore that large? Bore it as minimal as possible so you still have that option if something happens and you need to bore it again in the future.

 

I'll keep the bore to minimal, thanks for the above link, encouraging to know it can be done with stock manifold and injectors. I was already starting to look at a 4 injector conversion? maybe not.

Edited October 23, 2009 by pc85

[Technology]

Is there a problem with the stock engine? Just leave it and get the big turbo. Get what I have: a precision sc6152s, it's only like 800 bucks, or if you buy used, it's even cheaper. Anyway. You need a turbo that is capable of more than what you are looking for. if you want 350whp, get a turbo rated for at least 100hp more than that. That way you aren't ringing the turbo out for all it's worth just to get you to what you want, plus those ratings are ideal conditions with a super efficient motor like a 2 liter honda motor or something.

 

Here's the recipe for you to get 350rwhp:

 

maf-t

bcfpr - raise that fuel pressure to the moon. v-dubbers run like 5 bar sometimes, lmao.

3" exhaust

big turbo

maybe a bigger intercooler

[mstieg]

 

bcfpr - raise that fuel pressure to the moon. v-dubbers run like 5 bar sometimes, lmao.

3" exhaust

big turbo

maybe a bigger intercooler

 

 

You shouldn't need to raise the fuel pressure too much if you have the right size injectors. Too big, and it won't be very streetable or idle well though. Bigger = tougher to tune. I wouldn't want the fuel pump running too much pressure consistently even if it's capable of more. Mine's still just fine at 38psi idle with the cheap MSD #2222.

[Technology]

Well you don't have to upgrade the injectors for a while if you raise the pressure.

[Dan_Brew]

All of the information above is good info. Good luck with your goals it is not as easy as you would think.

[pc85]

Is there a problem with the stock engine? Just leave it and get the big turbo. Get what I have: a precision sc6152s, it's only like 800 bucks, or if you buy used, it's even cheaper. Anyway. You need a turbo that is capable of more than what you are looking for. if you want 350whp, get a turbo rated for at least 100hp more than that. That way you aren't ringing the turbo out for all it's worth just to get you to what you want, plus those ratings are ideal conditions with a super efficient motor like a 2 liter honda motor or something.

 

Here's the recipe for you to get 350rwhp:

 

maf-t

bcfpr - raise that fuel pressure to the moon. v-dubbers run like 5 bar sometimes, lmao.

3" exhaust

big turbo

maybe a bigger intercooler

 

Stock engine is fine, was bored out before with J E pistons and cracked the block runnng with a 302 Mustang, so replaced the bored out block back to stock, have some hesitation problems but that should be taken care of with the rebuild. I've seen maf-t on other posts, dumb question but thats why I'm asking for some help, what do the initials stand for? is it a mass air flow fuel management system? I'll definitely look into 3" exhaust and can get a 4" intercooler, *DM has some reasonably priced options and where can I get some cheap high output turbos, I haven't seen anything for less than $900 except the 19 C race on sale for $895 which is rated for 380 + hp. Good advice, keep it coming.. I see its not as easy as I thought.

[pc85]

Well you don't have to upgrade the injectors for a while if you raise the pressure.

 

Sounds like I'll probably be doing a little bit of both, definetly upgrading the injectors and adjusting the fuel pressure to a happy medium between performance and driveability. As far as injectors go, what about a 4 injector conversion with a fuel management system?

[Technology]

Hesitations are caused by bad injectors, broken jet valves, bad mass air sensor, big vacuum/boost leak, bad vacuum advance, bad tps, and that's about it. Probably 95% of the time it's injectors. 4% of the time it's a bad mass air sensor, and 1% of the time, it's any of the others either alone or combined.

 

MAF-T means Mass Air Flow Translator, it's a product that allows you to use a GM mass air sensor with a much larger flow capacity and a little box so you can "tune" it and drive it like stock, but without stock problems.

 

If you want a decently priced turbo, call your local performance shop, or these guys: www.maperformance.com at 763-545-3800 and tell them what you want, and they can help. Good prices and fast shipping are what they are all about.

 

Or you can check out DSM forums for guys getting rid of mid-frame turbos (t3/t4 style). I've seen plenty of turbos up for sale on a regular basis on my local mitsu forum. (www.mitsustyle.com).

[pc85]

Hesitations are caused by bad injectors, broken jet valves, bad mass air sensor, big vacuum/boost leak, bad vacuum advance, bad tps, and that's about it. Probably 95% of the time it's injectors. 4% of the time it's a bad mass air sensor, and 1% of the time, it's any of the others either alone or combined.

 

MAF-T means Mass Air Flow Translator, it's a product that allows you to use a GM mass air sensor with a much larger flow capacity and a little box so you can "tune" it and drive it like stock, but without stock problems.

 

If you want a decently priced turbo, call your local performance shop, or these guys: www.maperformance.com at 763-545-3800 and tell them what you want, and they can help. Good prices and fast shipping are what they are all about.

 

Or you can check out DSM forums for guys getting rid of mid-frame turbos (t3/t4 style). I've seen plenty of turbos up for sale on a regular basis on my local mitsu forum. (www.mitsustyle.com).

 

Thanks for the tip on maperformance, saw the Precision line of T3/T4 turbos from entry level, PTE series and the top of line Garret ranging from $599 to >$1000. They all put out from 490-600 + max hp. Are the entry level models any good or do you get what you pay for?

[mstieg]

Sounds like I'll probably be doing a little bit of both, definetly upgrading the injectors and adjusting the fuel pressure to a happy medium between performance and driveability. As far as injectors go, what about a 4 injector conversion with a fuel management system?

 

The Delphi 65 lb/hr ones are just right for street/race. You can grab for of them for pretty cheap - better yet if patient enough to get them second hand/often brand new from other people's failed MPI prospects. Search for Racetronix - they have em for pretty cheap. Chad can give you the exact part number. A Magna MPI intake is the cheapest way to go - it needs to be modded however. Ask Chad about that too - he may have one done to sell or might be able to mod yours if you can track down a stocker (they only come from Australia tho).

 

Megasquirt is the cheapest standalone engine management out there ~ around $400, and sky's the limit on other types. Depends what you want. Seriously though, 300rwhp is pretty damn fast on these cars. 350 is fairly scary on the streets if not used to it. Anything above 300 is decreasing the life of the engine if hitting that often. Normal street driving won't likely see above 250hp unless really hammering it to full boost in the upper rpms. Depends what your goals are.

[pc85]

The Delphi 65 lb/hr ones are just right for street/race. You can grab for of them for pretty cheap - better yet if patient enough to get them second hand/often brand new from other people's failed MPI prospects. Search for Racetronix - they have em for pretty cheap. Chad can give you the exact part number. A Magna MPI intake is the cheapest way to go - it needs to be modded however. Ask Chad about that too - he may have one done to sell or might be able to mod yours if you can track down a stocker (they only come from Australia tho).

 

Megasquirt is the cheapest standalone engine management out there ~ around $400, and sky's the limit on other types. Depends what you want. Seriously though, 300rwhp is pretty damn fast on these cars. 350 is fairly scary on the streets if not used to it. Anything above 300 is decreasing the life of the engine if hitting that often. Normal street driving won't likely see above 250hp unless really hammering it to full boost in the upper rpms. Depends what your goals are.

 

Problem with a lot of the MPI systems is you lose the A/C and have to re-plumb the I/C. TEP has a 4 injector conversion using stock manifold/TB with a fuel management system. Not cheap but I'll still be able to drive it in the summer. Thanks for the hp perspective, I probably won't be pushing it too much, not doing this for racing just like to know that I have the power when I need it, and you can always feel some Gs without using all 350 ponies but thanks for the advise and links.

[Indiana]

TEP has a 4 injector conversion using stock manifold/TB with a fuel management system.

They still sell that? I wonder why? I guess if people spend money on it they will have someone make it and take your money. Your money would be better spent on two larger injectors and a translator of some type. If you should decide to return to stock or sell those parts you can always do that and sell the translator too. You won't get very many to buy that used TEP setup and you won't get your money back from it and its not cheap.

[Technology]

Thanks for the tip on maperformance, saw the Precision line of T3/T4 turbos from entry level, PTE series and the top of line Garret ranging from $599 to >$1000. They all put out from 490-600 + max hp. Are the entry level models any good or do you get what you pay for?

 

Well, any problem you have with a turbo from a reputable seller like MAP will be decent. It's the ebay turbos you should watch out for, though some people have some success with those. Personally, I'd go with the more pricey units because yes, you do get what you pay for.

 

The Delphi 65 lb/hr ones are just right for street/race. You can grab for of them for pretty cheap - better yet if patient enough to get them second hand/often brand new from other people's failed MPI prospects. Search for Racetronix - they have em for pretty cheap. Chad can give you the exact part number. A Magna MPI intake is the cheapest way to go - it needs to be modded however. Ask Chad about that too - he may have one done to sell or might be able to mod yours if you can track down a stocker (they only come from Australia tho).

 

Megasquirt is the cheapest standalone engine management out there ~ around $400, and sky's the limit on other types. Depends what you want. Seriously though, 300rwhp is pretty damn fast on these cars. 350 is fairly scary on the streets if not used to it. Anything above 300 is decreasing the life of the engine if hitting that often. Normal street driving won't likely see above 250hp unless really hammering it to full boost in the upper rpms. Depends what your goals are.

 

I don't know that 350whp will decrease the life of the engine, provided it's built right. I for instance am getting my engine o-ringed so I can go higher. Nothing broke, but the headgasket lost its seal because the head and studs couldn't clamp it enough. And before it got too bad to drive, I was stomping it all over, so I was getting as much power as it could make while lifting the head. At first it would have been about 360 at the wheels, gradually dropping as the gasket got worse.

 

They still sell that? I wonder why? I guess if people spend money on it they will have someone make it and take your money. Your money would be better spent on two larger injectors and a translator of some type. If you should decide to return to stock or sell those parts you can always do that and sell the translator too. You won't get very many to buy that used TEP setup and you won't get your money back from it and its not cheap.

 

Like Indiana said, don't buy the extra injector junk unless you go with a real MPI intake manifold. Extra injector systems were for when you couldn't get big injectors. Now you can get 2000cc injectors. Fuel isn't a problem with TBI anymore.

[jettajody]

I have a better question to ask sir!!! Forget about 350hp, is the question you ask all about 1/4 mile ET? If so, what are you looking for as far as that goes. We all know that different cars with different HP's run different times. Seen cars with big HP run crap times and seen some plain jain almost stock quest get down to almost the 12's, more like 13.5's to 13.20's. What are you wanting to run????

[pc85]

Definitely going for a T3/T4 Precision turbo mid range PTE series with max output of 400-500 hp. Did some more research on MPI's and found Fuelinjectionpro.com, they have a TB Pro 2R which is an upgrade TB with 2 injectors, 1025cc each and all the necessary software to eliminate the mass air filter, manage all the sensors and an inline fuel pressure regulator. I know 350wrhp can be done with stock manifold and a 2 injector system. The majority of the advise is to go with a MPI system but that means loosing A/C and more work re-plumbing the I/C. I am reluctant to do that, I still want to drive the car in the Summer, that's the only reason I was looking at TEP's 4 injector conversion (MPI and A/C), not a popular alternative so what's wrong with trying a TB/2 inj upgrade, T3/T4 turbo, 3" exhaust and maf-t?

 

PS has anyone worked with Fuelinjectionpro.com?

[pc85]

I have a better question to ask sir!!! Forget about 350hp, is the question you ask all about 1/4 mile ET? If so, what are you looking for as far as that goes. We all know that different cars with different HP's run different times. Seen cars with big HP run crap times and seen some plain jain almost stock quest get down to almost the 12's, more like 13.5's to 13.20's. What are you wanting to run????

 

Sorry, not trying to burst your bubble or anything but I'm not interested in racing nor time trials at this point, just want to feel some Gs and want to have some power on demand. Didn't really think 350 hp was such a monumental task after seeing 300 clubs, 400 clubs and 500 clubs I thought most starquesters had 300 + hps. Why do people climb Mt Everest?

[jinx]

don't buy the extra injector junk unless you go with a real MPI intake manifold. Extra injector systems were for when you couldn't get big injectors

a MPI-converted stock intake is as real as it gets. Can be done on a low budget.

Franks' fuel-only mpi was one of the quickest starquests to ever pass thru SQC.

Most powerful tbi cars ran stock throttle body also, so we still really can't say how "bad" these parts r.... like oe pistons for eg..

 

I know 350wrhp can be done with stock manifold and a 2 injector system.

Without nitros ? No TBI hit 350 yet. Not as ez as it sounds. Read that thread again, realistic est ~310-320hp, and that's with an extrordinary level of effort/detail (camshaft).

 

Sorry, not trying to burst your bubble or anything but I'm not interested in racing nor time trials at this point, just want to feel some Gs and want to have some power on demand.

That part won't be too hard, but I think u missed his point. "350hp" can come in a variety of flavours. Tq is where u get your "Gs". Same 350hp can have 300 or 400+ ft-lbs, they won't "feel"(or pull) the same.

ETs is the playground for a true representation of acceleration capabilities.... while a peak hp number (and mph) is just something to brag about

Edited October 24, 2009 by jinx

[JAinsworth]

Read about BlueCook's mods. He's running on TBI.

Jimmy

 

http://www.starquestclub.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=97256