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Timing chain adjustment...


nightwalkerancestery
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Hey guys. I have my timing cover off and am in the process of adjusting it to make sure the timing is right. By how I've done it, the chain was off the crank by one tooth. However, i have a question about the plated links. My plated links don't lign up like it describes in the service manual. I know for a fact this is a replacement chain due to my father replacing the chain a few years back when he had the car. The links are too close to hit BOTH marks at the same time. I can align the top link on the cam sprocket and then turn the crank and the link almost matched the mark. So I figured that that mark was supposed to lign up with the bottom link after I rotate the crank. I just wanted to know if this sounds right. Also, I was wondering is the long gash in the crank was the timing mark for the timing chain. It looked right as well but i just want to make sure. I don't want to get everything back on and find out it was wrong.

 

Thanks,

Charles C. Palka

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Once its turned it won't line up again for many many turns and if its off one link it never will it will stay off the same amount. If you aren't sure, take out one of the upper bolts from the guides and loosen the other and let the guide tilt over and move the chain so your links line up. I could describe how to line it up and check it but since you have the timing cover off its going to be easier for you to just take a guide out of the way and let the chain move.

 

http://www.b2600turbo.com/images/1d65.jpg

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I know how to move it and adjust it and everything. I've also already seen the picture in the manual. Like i said...I know all that. However, if you look at the picture it shows that the links should be lined up with the marks on at the same time. I have rotated time and time again but because this is a replacement chain, sometimes the plated links aren't labeled like they should be.

 

In my case the links are WAY to close together to the point where when the top plated link is on the cam timing mark, the other link is only halfway down and nowhere close to even the crank SPROCKET.

 

So when I align the top link with the cam sprocket, I can turn the crank and even when it was a tooth off, the bottom link landed one tooth off the mark. But I have to turn the crank till the second link comes down and when it finally hits the crank, the top plated link is halfway down and nowhere near the cam sprocket.

 

In other words the links are so close together that they will NOT hit both timing marks at the same time. I have to adjust the cam to the top link, then turn the crank to rotate the crank sprocket and chain, and then adjust the crank when I get the second link down there.

 

Thanks,

Charles C. Palka

 

P.S. For example in reference to the plated link problem, say the OEM distance between the links is 35. Well the link distance on the chain that's ON there would be about 20 links. So you get my question? How would I align the crank and cam in reference to a different plated link distance?

Edited by nightwalkerancestery
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Look at the chain, there's a short distance between the two plated links on one side and a much longer distance on the other. If you had one link lined up and the other was off one then the chain IS off one and you have to move it. You can line up the chain and turn it once and its way off and it might take 100 more turns for it to come back and both line up again but if one is there and the other is off only one or two then obviously its not right and you need to move it. IF you have had milled surfaces and an adjustable gear maybe it was done on purpose and is correct. There's not a chain out there thats made wrong and I've never seen one that didn't have the plated id links but they might not be as easy to see as others. You can see the top plated link but not the bottom one its hidden behind the balance shaft gear and you have to look up from the bottom to see the groove cut into the crank gear. It sounds like you are looking at the chain wrong or aren't seeing the correct link to use. The link might just be different from the rest and it might only be on one side but even if the chain is on backwards it won't matter the distance is the same its just difficult to see.

 

http://www.b2600turbo.com/keith/IM009231.JPG

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I understand there's one longer side and shorter side. but the shorter side isn't long enough to reach both marks at once. I've read on one of professor quest's that there have been some chains ID'd wrong or sometimes not even at all. This one i guess is just as such. The links are VERY clear and i even put a little white paint on em to make them more clear when it down at the bottom. It's just that the links are identified wrong. All the gears and what not are still stock and the balance shaft is still there though i'm looking to change that soon. lol. I was just wondering what i should do with my timing if the links don't hit the marks at the same time. Or more or less if the marks don't even hit the SPROCKETS at the same time. i would show you a picture but i would have to draw one up. I just wanted to make sure it was set right with the chain i have.

 

Thanks,

Charles C. Palka

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The plated links mean nothing on that chain anyway. It is a way for beginners to tell if it is right, nothing else. If the plates don't line up, ou may have the front side of chain toward the back? I never even look at the plates, so I couldn't say if they are plated on both sides (front and back) of the chain or not.
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If you have one lined up and you say the other is one off then what are you basing that on to say the chain isn't off? Nobody is going to make a chain and not mark it. Are you looking at an old chain and it discolored because they aren't all as visibly different as the one I showed. You want the way you can tell by just looking at it? You'll need to put the timing cover back on and the head on and I'll describe it.
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Line up as shown

 

 

 

 

http://www.b2600turbo.com/images/IM005962.JPG

 

Now look at the holes where the valve cover bolts go, draw an imaginary line out to the teeth on the cam gear.

 

Draw a second line from the center of the bolt hole through the dowel pin hole out to the teeth and that line will be down between two tips.

http://www.b2600turbo.com/images/IM003019.JPG

 

The line on the cam gear, move that line over (not the gear) to the tip going clockwise and line it up with the one through the valve cover bolt holes. This puts the cam dowel pin just before 12 o'clock. This works for stock height head and block.

Edited by Indiana
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No the front of the chain is on the front and the back on the back. It's all right. The links just aren't the way they're supposed to be. I know what the links look like and i know how they SHOULD go. This chain is just made wrong in terms of visual reference. I've actually seen one chain that didn't have the links. i think someone just used a cheap crappy chain. lol. but i've also seen references of the links being placed incorrectly like ming.

 

And I KNOW they're the plated links. I do know the difference and they are still VERY noticeable. But yeah I get how to set the timing that way. I just can't judge it with the cover off because i don't have the markings. When I set the cam to it's position the crank looks about right so i think I'm going to go with how i have it set up and take it from there.

 

Also I know some people say it should be a little before twelve on the cam and so just to let you and others know if you don't already...there's actually a triangle mark on the very front cam tower to the left of the valve cover bolt hole which the dowel hole should line up with. Just in case no one really knew HOW far before twelve :)

 

I'm going to put everything back together tomorrow. so wish me luck. I'll give everyone an update.

 

Thanks,

Charles C. Palka

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Now wait a minute. All this was because you THINK you have some defective chain when its only off one link and you haven't even put the timing cover on and are guessing that its at TDC and are going to leave it that way? You don't see a problem with doing that? Why do I feel like I just WASTED my time? Edited by Indiana
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  • 2 weeks later...

if this is a new chain match it up with the old chain if it don't match the old chain take it back to where you bought it or buy a new chain ,, problem solve'd

 

it shouldn't take more then 3 min to find out if the chain is right or not

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No the front of the chain is on the front and the back on the back. It's all right. The links just aren't the way they're supposed to be. I know what the links look like and i know how they SHOULD go. This chain is just made wrong in terms of visual reference. I've actually seen one chain that didn't have the links. i think someone just used a cheap crappy chain. lol. but i've also seen references of the links being placed incorrectly like ming.

 

And I KNOW they're the plated links. I do know the difference and they are still VERY noticeable. But yeah I get how to set the timing that way. I just can't judge it with the cover off because i don't have the markings. When I set the cam to it's position the crank looks about right so i think I'm going to go with how i have it set up and take it from there.

 

Also I know some people say it should be a little before twelve on the cam and so just to let you and others know if you don't already...there's actually a triangle mark on the very front cam tower to the left of the valve cover bolt hole which the dowel hole should line up with. Just in case no one really knew HOW far before twelve :)

 

I'm going to put everything back together tomorrow. so wish me luck. I'll give everyone an update.

 

Thanks,

Charles C. Palka

so you pulled the timing cover without pulling the head? you will be leaking oil

 

also, if you think you have a cheap chain, or if the links dont line up correctly, do you really feel safe on long drives not knowing the quality of the chain?

count the links between the marks, and count the links between marks in the pic, and make sure they are the same

Now wait a minute. All this was because you THINK you have some defective chain when its only off one link and you haven't even put the timing cover on and are guessing that its at TDC and are going to leave it that way? You don't see a problem with doing that? Why do I feel like I just WASTED my time?

agreed

if this is a new chain match it up with the old chain if it don't match the old chain take it back to where you bought it or buy a new chain ,, problem solve'd

 

it shouldn't take more then 3 min to find out if the chain is right or not

seems the chain was a already done replacement

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for some that think they know better,, you can easily remove the frt timeing cover and replace with out any oil leaks , but the oil pan must be drop'd , and a goodly helping of common sense use'd

 

heres what you do at one point you said you had the frt cover off,, if sowhy didn't you remove the chain and start over with the gear and link alingment , with t he chain istall'd there is no way in hell you'l ever get the two links to align back up,by rotateing the engine

the chain has an odd number of links this causes the chain to move arround the cam and crank gear,, the same link never hits the same gear tooth but once in every 190 or so turns , this is to help reduce chain and gear tooth wear ,

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so you pulled the timing cover without pulling the head? you will be leaking oil

 

Not if you do it right. You need to take measures to ensure it seals. A thin film of siicone under the head gasket will seal that, and the same for the oil pan. Even if you lose the oil pan gasket around the front there, it can be sealed. But of course, the pan needs removed to do the BS elim, or any work that requires removing the oil pump. Then you can replace the gasket entirely.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Like it was suggested in on of the above replies - why not just replace the timing chain with a new one? From what I've been able to read over the years, Cloyes supplied to the Mitsu factory, the timing chains for the G54B T engines when they were originally built so it would be a good idea to buy one of 'em from NAPA etc.

 

Cloyes PN is 9-4131

 

Here is a link to Cloyes website for the chain. http://www.cloyes.co....aspx?tabid=378

 

Personally, I'd also strongly consider changing the entire oil pump drive chain & timing chain assembly with Cloyes Kit, PN 9-4145SA. That way you are using GOOD parts which will last much longer than the Made in China/India parts you've got now - ie. the chain guides and tensioner "rubbery plastic" chain contact surfaces don't wear down as fast as the cheap ones. I'd also pull and clean the sludge out of the oil pan -which would only take an additional hour or 2.

 

It's known as "peace of mind" when you are driving your Lady far away from home.

 

For What It's Worth.

 

KEN

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for some that think they know better,, you can easily remove the frt timeing cover and replace with out any oil leaks , but the oil pan must be drop'd , and a goodly helping of common sense use'd

 

heres what you do at one point you said you had the frt cover off,, if sowhy didn't you remove the chain and start over with the gear and link alingment , with t he chain istall'd there is no way in hell you'l ever get the two links to align back up,by rotateing the engine

the chain has an odd number of links this causes the chain to move arround the cam and crank gear,, the same link never hits the same gear tooth but once in every 190 or so turns , this is to help reduce chain and gear tooth wear ,

no, he said he is not dropping the pan, so process of elimination comes to, he didnt remove the head either

 

are you telling me you can put a timing cover on without leaks without dropping the pan or removing the head?

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are you telling me you can put a timing cover on without leaks without dropping the pan or removing the head?

Uh huh, you cut the headgasket off at the face, install the timing cover and put the sealant on the bottom for the pan then put sealant on the U shaped piece of the headgasket you just cut off then slip it in the crack. If its too thick then cut some thick gasket paper and make it work. Its hard enough to do with the pan off and the head still on but you can get it mashed up in there and over the dowels. Sealing the pan gasket is more important than the top because it leaks much easier if you don't get it sealed up so don't cut the pan gasket, cut the headgasket.
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for some that think they know better,, you can easily remove the frt timeing cover and replace with out any oil leaks , but the oil pan must be drop'd , and a goodly helping of common sense use'd

 

 

no, he said he is not dropping the pan, so process of elimination comes to, he didnt remove the head either

 

are you telling me you can put a timing cover on without leaks without dropping the pan or removing the head?

 

If you reread Shelby's above reply, he is not saying that you can remove the timing cover without removing the oil pan.

 

As for removing the timing cover without removing the head - yes it it can be done, and most times is done this way. I have done this 4 times without any leaks at the timing cover/head gasket joint when I changed out my timing chain and oil pump chain guides and did the initial BSE. I just use a LIGHT coat of Permatex Copper anti-Seize on the top flange surface of the timing cover were it mates to the head gasket which makes removal of the timing cover SSSOOO much easier the next time I remove the timing cover. ;)

 

Of course I always drop the oil pan to clean the gunk out of it, anything on the oil pick up screen and keep from screwing up the front of the oil pan mating flange and to replace this joint's gasket that almost always gets screwed up during removal of the timing cover.

 

For What It's Worth.

 

KEN

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@ Indiana: I didn't ask for you to post pictures or spend as much time on the topic as we did. I just wanted a short opinion on the chain that was already put on there. I KNOW the links are off and I KNOW the timing was off. I couldn't put the timing cover on and take it off but so many times because i did not take off the head. I also kept the oil pan on as well and just slid the cover off. Didn't damage any gaskets. Though I did replace the oil pan gaskets.

 

The chain was a replacement and is apparently VERY wrong to how it should be. I've KNOWN this. But as a precaution I've recently replaced the chain as well and the tensioner and spring. Working on the BSE kit soon when I get the money. I also timed that. Timing is spot on now. I was hoping I wouldn't have had to get a new chain and all and was going to get an opinion but seems that I only got criticized by many. I will post pics in a little while of the comparisons of the chains as well as a link for Professor Quest to educate some of you.

 

Thanks,

Charles C. Palka

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@ Indiana: I didn't ask for you to post pictures or spend as much time on the topic as we did. I will post pics in a little while of the comparisons of the chains as well as a link for Professor Quest to educate some of you.

 

Thanks,

Charles C. Palka

 

???? If Professor Quests information on Timing Chains "educated" you...Why in the hell are you posting for help on SQC?

 

Bill

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Because I was hoping that someone could give me a little help in setting the chain that had the off links rather than having to buy a new one. But I ended up having to buy a new one cause no one could help me with the parts I already had.

 

Thanks,

Charles C. Palka

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The problem with this thread is the Original Poster says his chain was wrong, but none of us seem to believe him, thus our advice in the direction of simply timing the cam properly to the crank and using the existing chain without worry about where the plated links are because it matters not where they are.

 

I've read PQ's threads and I advise you to pay close attention to what you do, and don't just take his word for it. always understand the issues yourself before proceeding. Dont take anyone's word as Gospel so to speak. Then you will see the proper direction for the unique situation and application you are dealing with, which always has a slight twist from the norm, so no single manual or posting can cover all bases about it. It is best to gain a clear understanding for yourself, then move forward with focus from there.

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Tim I understand what you are saying. I appreciate your sincerity. But I will say that I DO have proof of the links being off. The comparison is the link at the end. One problem with degreeing the cam is that no one really can give a good description of how to without using the links. Everyone says it has to be just a little before twelve o'clock. The problem is that the human eye can only be but so good. It's hard to tell when cam is off only 4* (one tooth on the crank). Therefore i was looking for guidance on how to set it using the plated links that were on the original chain I had on there. The reference to PQ's dizzy link is only for the one picture that shows the difference between various chains. He shows that some have off count, off colored, or even no plated links. Hence the problem with my previous chain. But it's now in the past as the chain has been replaced and degreed correctly and I am now in the process of rebuilding the dizzy. Thank you again for being so kind Tim. Always known you to be very helpful.

 

The chain on the right is the previous...the one on the left is the new Cloyes chain...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/69603568@N07/6328909635/

 

Thanks,

Charles C. Palka

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