turbo manifold

[dmt6999]

hi everyone i havent made to many posts on this site but i have been a member for awhile and check it everyday for useful info about these wonderful cars. well i was wondering what is out there these days as far as turbo manifold upgrades, what is the most popular, what do the big boys run?

[speedyquest]

to my knowledge there is only one option for the stock fuel system. its a custom made header made by 101 purpose, and that i believe was recalled because of cracking issues (someone please correct me if im wrong). otherwise the only time anyone goes to a different exhaust manifold is because the switched over to mpi. again this is to the best of my knowledge but i hope it helps out a bit

 

allen

[83TechMaster]

I run a SFP Header but im not sure if they make them anymore.

[Lusion972]

turbonetics makes one too but not tubular

[Caliber308]

I have been running the stock exhaust manifold for 18 years.Extensive turbo and engine modifications done (See modifications below)Never saw the need, or horsepower gain from a upgraded exhaust manifold. You can check with Chad on this site about a header. I think it's a waste of money. Want more horsepower without a header???? Go larger turbo, upgrade your fuel system and injectors, go MPI or do extensive cylinder head work on your TBI rebuild. Power comes from the Cylinder head (I.E: Fuel and air flow), no matter how you look at it. You can add this, or add that. In the end, it's the Cylinder head flow that determines horsepower. 4 cylinder turbocharged or V-8 454ci. If your Cylinder head or heads are junk. The entire motor is. Fuel and Air flow is the final factor to determine how your engine will perform. Been there, Done that. How do you think Ferrari and Mclaren make horsepower in F-1 to rev at 19,000 rpms with V-8 engines???Could it be Cylinder head work?????? Air and Fuel flow. We can all build the bottom end of a motor to take a lot of abuse. In the end, it's the cylinder head that determines power. This is why I did extensive cylinder head work on my engine. Like the Three- point valve job, porting and polishing on my Marnal head. You can have a high- performance engine with not only doing the bottom end, but also the Cylinder head. Money is money. It all depends on how much you have to spend.

 

CALIBER 308

Edited October 1, 2008 by Caliber308

[JustPaus_88TSi]

Cal, no matter what you do to your motor, you will gain power/torque and response with a tubular header.

 

From completely stock, to a fully built MPI setup, you will gain in all areas.

 

 

Even porting the crap out of the stock manifold and turbo proves to be a nice decrease in spool time.

[Edde]

Wasn't there a log style around here a while back?

[Technology]

You can buy a cast iron log manifold with a t3 flange and an external wastegate flange for about 250 bucks from www.treadstoneperformance.com

 

It's the best option for longevity and flexibility with turbo setups.

[Chad]

the theory behind why you benifit from a good port job on a head is the same as the theory of why you benifit from a well designed manifold, or well ported OEM unit.

 

Think about it, the manifold is merely an extension of the exhaust runners of the head. they are the same path, and suffer from the same limitations, and respond similarly to improvement. Just because one is called a manifold, and one a head, they still represent the same path.

 

If headders don't work, why are the so popular in the aftermarket for every car out there?

 

Porting a head requires engine dissasembly and signifigant specific knowledge, replacing a manifold is a simple job, even for most novices.

 

One member has a dyno proben 22 HP gain from mine over one of the other aftermerket "log" units (he had the the turbonetis, same as the treadstone) Who knows how much it would have been vs the stocker

 

For what it's worth, of the 35 manifolds I've sold to date, every one I've talked to has reported noticably improved (decreased) spool time, and felt more power available.

 

so there is your theory, real word experiance, positive end user feedback, and dyno proof, all in one reply...

[Dcrasta]

There have been some cast iron 'semilog' manifolds for t3 (with external wastegate) popping up on Ebay from time 2 time. They look like they should be nice (copies) of turbonetics (700$) manifold. The seem to have been about 250bucks (but Im wondering if its low nickle cast ..)

[jinx]

many tubulars aren't swapped directly with oe manifold using same turbo.

When they are, most report a slower spool up time... tradeoff is mid-top end.

Tainter documented a perfect example; t3/t4 60-1 on ported oe vs his header.

 

Because our stock CA18 manifolds are a pain to remove, most go aftermarket tubular. Every single one of them reported degraded response(same turbo) and raised underhood temperatures. A couple actually dyno'd the difference. Some switched back to oe.

 

some starquest dyno'd excellent power with stock head, some with stock cam... and with the numbers to 'back it up'.

 

Don't take it for granted that bigger, more flow, more RPMs is ALWAYS better, regardless of application.

That has been disproven in "G54 land" over & over. ALOT of times, your money can be spent more wisely elsewhere

[JustPaus_88TSi]

That has been disproven in "G54 land" over & over. ALOT of times, your money can be spent more wisely elsewhere

 

When, who, where?

 

 

Port a stock unit and port match the turbo. If you don't gain response, your motor isn't turned on. lol

 

Mike(boosted_one) reported the same with his MPI, heavily ported head, tubular header, T4 60-1 setup.

 

 

Sure, going too big or flowing too much can alter the low end, due to velocity loss.

 

 

Once you've already spent the money on a built motor, MPI setup and such.. Why wouldn't you get a nice header? What else will you spend money on?

Edited October 2, 2008 by JustPaus_88TSi

[TainterRacing]

many tubulars aren't swapped directly with oe manifold using same turbo.

When they are, most report a slower spool up time... tradeoff is mid-top end.

Tainter documented a perfect example; t3/t4 60-1 on ported oe vs his header.

 

We were running a 12.8 with a stock manifold hevly ported with ex gate. We were using 4 gears I had tried to run just 3 a few times and would get a 12.9-13.0

 

 

Then we went to a header with ex gate and it dropped down to a 12.6. I only used the first 3 gears to get this time I tried to use 4 gears and it was slower about 12.7 I was able to rev more and have a lot more power over 6k with the header. the manifold died at about 5900 or so with the header I was pulling hard to 6.5 I did not go farther. At the same time there was power loss at about 2300-3500 range with the header of the manifold but when drag racing I was at 3500 at the lowest so it would out very well.

 

man you have a good memory jinx

[Chad]

the increase in underhood temeratures is a funcion of wall thickness and material used. If you are comparing a thin wall tube headder to stock, yes, there will be a lot of added heat under the hood.

 

If compared to a thick wall pipe headder, it's only going to be because you also removed some heat shielding to make it fit. Don't blame a pipe headder for that.

 

Stainless is a very poor conductor of heat, far worse than cast iron (stock). With equal thickness, stainless will run much cooler. given the stocker is still thicker than a pipe headder, the difference is effectivly nulified and you get a net result of about the same heat transfer.

 

Picking up .2 seconds in a 1/4 is quite a lot of power actualy.

[TainterRacing]

Picking up .2 seconds in a 1/4 is quite a lot of power actualy.

 

O yes It is I am not trying to take sides on this it matters on what all you want, my next motor I am going to put a manifold on as I don't want to make a high Rpm motor. will a header make more power then a manifold YES with out a doubt a header will make more power.

[Indiana]

There was also a noticeable difference when a header is wrapped, both power and quicker spool. If you want to go fast before the other guy and you start buying parts why would you stop and where? If you aren't into that then why tell others its "bad"? There is more than one reason to want a header and after you've got one you sure the hell won't take it back off. The porting to make the smooth transition from the header collector to the turbine housing was also noticeable. You start adding up little power gains here and air filter, a hardpipe, an ignition system, a maft, larger than stock turbo, a bov those are all hp gain items so when does you opinion of where you should stop because of something like the PRICE of something stop you? You didn't need that motor balanced but you did it anyway, you didn't have to get those cylinders bored and those forged pistons but you did it anyway so why are you telling someone a header is a waste of money? IMO its one of the FIRST things you should buy and all other mods you do to the motor from there on will compliment it. You have your priorities in a different order then the rest and while there isn't anything wrong with that I still say once you've had a header you won't be removing it.

[Caliber308]

There was also a noticeable difference when a header is wrapped, both power and quicker spool. If you want to go fast before the other guy and you start buying parts why would you stop and where? If you aren't into that then why tell others its "bad"? There is more than one reason to want a header and after you've got one you sure the hell won't take it back off. The porting to make the smooth transition from the header collector to the turbine housing was also noticeable. You start adding up little power gains here and air filter, a hardpipe, an ignition system, a maft, larger than stock turbo, a bov those are all hp gain items so when does you opinion of where you should stop because of something like the PRICE of something stop you? You didn't need that motor balanced but you did it anyway, you didn't have to get those cylinders bored and those forged pistons but you did it anyway so why are you telling someone a header is a waste of money? IMO its one of the FIRST things you should buy and all other mods you do to the motor from there on will compliment it. You have your priorities in a different order then the rest and while there isn't anything wrong with that I still say once you've had a header you won't be removing it.

 

I take it your referring to me. Well, I still have the stock exhaust manifold and heat shields installed, so no excessive heat under my hood. I also can rev 6500 to 7000 rpms. Head work is what did it for me. Slap on a header with no cylinder head work and take it to 6500 rpms??? No thanks. Spend the $600.00 on head work FIRST. Then if you so desire, install a header. Not everyone on this site sets up their cars just for the strip. P.S. My car doesn't suffer at low end torque or mid range power.

 

CALIBER 308

[Chad]

I think the idea for most members is to add power without dissasembling their motors. Bolt on parts... Head porting is a worth while modification, but it's not a bolt on part by any means.

 

And trust me, slap on a headder onto a bone stock head and you can freely rev well into the 7000's with no hesitation (assuming the cam is suitable). You want to "get here" with extensive head work and stock manifold, others want to "get there" with custom bolt on parts and a stock head. both will get you to the same place, and they both $cost$ about the same.

 

Now imagine if you did both

[Indiana]

I take it your referring to me. Well, I still have the stock exhaust manifold and heat shields installed, so no excessive heat under my hood. I also can rev 6500 to 7000 rpms. Head work is what did it for me. Slap on a header with no cylinder head work and take it to 6500 rpms??? No thanks. Spend the $600.00 on head work FIRST. Then if you so desire, install a header. Not everyone on this site sets up their cars just for the strip. P.S. My car doesn't suffer at low end torque or mid range power.

 

CALIBER 308

What does having a header and rev to 6500 have to do with it? You know it doesn't take 30 minutes to port a head and remove the sharp edges and smooth it up. Now the heat shield part, you wrap that header up and then maybe one or two minutes after the car is shut off you can lay you hand on there and not get burnt, even when running if you touch it you will not get burnt. The point of the wrap is to keep the heat in and you can even wrap the turbine housing and you need no shields after that unless you want a downpipe shield and we did keep the stock firewall shield and that's also a good place to come from behind with your WB 02 and even with a stock cam boost is still there way under 2000rpms. Who said you can't make new heat shields even if you have a header and wrap it? Like Chad said you do both and when you can weld yourself a header doesn't cost much more than making your own exhaust system and everyone does that eventually. You used to not like MSD ignitions but you put it on recently didn't you? Well just wait until you decide to put on a header. I think the part you can't stand is that someone would have to remove the head from your motor and match the ports and you just can't even go there because as soon as that head is pulled and that gasket is changed you would have to stop and restart the clock on your time and mileage that you new built motor lasted and you'd have one less thing to talk about.

[Chad]

The origional question :

 

I was wondering what is out there these days as far as turbo manifold upgrades, what is the most popular, what do the big boys run?

 

your answer:

 

I think it's a waste of money. Go larger turbo, upgrade your fuel system and injectors, go MPI or do extensive cylinder head work on your TBI rebuild. Spend the $600.00 on head work FIRST

 

 

 

Just porting out a head and running 6500 RPM won't last long either .

 

I'm sure we can all agree that rebuilding the entire motor, head included, is the best way, but that was not what was asked, and is financialy/mechanicly not an option for most.

 

It doesnt' seem to me that 'dmt6999' is looking to buld a $5000 motor at the the present time, and the rest of us don't think he needs to, to benifit from some bolt on modifications.

[Caliber308]

Just porting out a head and running 6500 RPM won't last long either .

 

Unless you also have all the other mods in place :thumbsup: I look at things this way. If your wanting to install a header your looking for more than a stock set up. I don't feel that I gave the poster bad advice, on the contrary. Perhaps I helped him in the long run. P.S. Chad and others: Did you read dmt6999s signature??? I did. Best to start at Point A, Instead of skipping to Point B, C and D.

 

 

CALIBER 308

Edited October 3, 2008 by Caliber308

[Chad]

I'm not saying you gave bad advice, it's actualy good advice. That advice however, did not answer his question.

 

Using you logic :

 

Power comes from the Cylinder head (I.E: Fuel and air flow), no matter how you look at it. You can add this, or add that. In the end, it's the Cylinder head flow that determines horsepower. 4 cylinder turbocharged or V-8 454ci. If your Cylinder head or heads are junk. The entire motor is

 

nothing is worth while untill the motor is overhauled.

 

That would include IC hard pipes, larger turbos (within reason), intercooler upgrades, MAS upgrades, intake modifications, larger ehausts, fuel system upgrades, etc.

 

It's been well documented by several thousand different different setups, that you will see significant gains doing these bolt on mods to stock motors, our belif is that headder upgrades can/should be included in that list of bolt on mods.

 

You prefer to put the motor first, that's fine. Just stop saying it won't work. Reliability is a factor on a stock mootor with no mods, adding a headder won't change it for the worse, just as these other mods don't.

 

Big turbos, runing too hot, providing too little fuel, and too much boost break motors, not flow increasing mods or minor turbo upgrades (16g or smaller).

[jinx]

did any of u guys read the original posters' sig ?

87 Starion ESi-R new to me unmodded looking to make some monster torque!

 

Exactly as tainter explained.... it ALL boils down to what YOU are after.... keeping in mind that stock manifolds have *proven* hi 11s on street starquests already.

Although I make my own headers, its not where I recommend a "torquey street 2.6 build" begin.

A T66 will "make more power", but do we suggest one to all comers ?

 

Hardcore 'fast' starquestors like tainters, Frank, Rollo, eip, 88white, etc...

that tried stuff, test & re-tested and posted quality feedback verified by real world numbers... that data is invaluable to me, so it tends to stick in my mind.

[ptracy26]

well i was wondering what is out there these days as far as turbo manifold upgrades, what is the most popular, what do the big boys run?

 

I haven't run it yet, but I have Chad's equal length Tubular Header (work of art actually), 20g tdo6 turbo, M7 head (no work on yet but Cal this will be ported/polished soon).

 

I think if you asking about manifolds you should have all of the above in some sort of related fashion (+ fuel = MPI? 0r TBI - larger Injec. Maft, or etc....), because I think they all work together better than doing on at a time.

 

Before you question any header application, you can add turbo booster(manual or elc.) Blow of valves, compressor bypass valves. Cam upgrades, ignition amplifiers, Air filter (Kn or related), better plumbing (pipes).

 

Hey, I'm just trying to get my post count up. lol

[Chad]

Oh, and to answer a part your questin not yet addressed, the "big boys" run long tube headders, ~30 primarys at 1-3/4"OD or 23" at 2" OD, but that requires more exotic ($$$$) materials, and you have to move a lot of stock crap for them to fit propperly.

 

Let's just hope that doesn't start a whole new tangent of unnessesary debate, LOL.