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Turbo Lubrication Problem


Jayton
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(I changed the name of this thread from 'BOV/Bypass Valve Question' due to the direction it has gone)

 

My car has been eating turbo's for a while now and it's an expensive diet (worked 20g's aren't cheap). I have been through everything that could possibly cause the turbo to repeatedly fail and everything checks out fine.

One of my final thoughts is that the BOV is not completely eliminating compressor stall and I am killing the turbo as a result. I am wondering if I should either convert my BOV to a Bypass Valve so that the air is routed back into the inlet pipe of the turbo to keep it spooled OR if I should run 2 BOV's as I have read some are doing when using bigger turbo's. I am currently using HKS's original Racing BOV.

 

Any thoughts are appreciated.

Edited by Jayton
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when you say eating it up how are they going bad? Blowing the seals. wheel coming off or what? not having or a BOV not working should not kill the Turbo it will make it not last as long but thats not going to be much of a issue unless you have high boost say 20+ and even then its going to last a good 60K+
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eating turbo'd don't realy tell us much,

you need to be spacific and tell us what was done, or not done and why each fail'd,

if the cause for the first one was not found and correct'd it'l happen over and over untill the reason for the failures is remove'd or correct'd

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Sorry for not being more specific, but the journal bearings wear out very fast (same on each turbo) and then the compressor wheel starts to hit the housing (between shifts and on deceleration) and everything goes to hell from there. I have checked everything that could possibly cause this such as:

 

Sent oil sample to lab for diagnosis

Changed the oil numerous times and use synthetic (AMSoil)

Checked oil pressure at turbo by installing a temporary guage at the oil inlet

Checked volume of oil returning to the engine from the turbo

Ensured adequate coolant flow

Checked for clogged exhaust

Ensured proper operating temps

 

And everything checks out fine. Even the oil sample checked out fine they just noted a high content of bronze (which was from turbo bearing wear). Each time the turbo has been rebuilt professionally and fully balanced when assembled (not just balancing of the seperate parts).

I have only pushed the turbo's to 14psi.

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It's the same turbo, it's just getting rebuilt each time it dies?

 

If so, maybe something in the turbo is out of spec.?

 

Yes it's the same turbo getting rebuilt. When I say rebuilt I don't just mean new bearings and seals. It gets a brand shaft and new compressor and turbine wheels so basically all they are re-using are the housings.

Its a hybrid 20G that has a ported compressor housing inlet and uses a Garret compressor wheel. I forget which turbine wheel it has, but I'm wondering if the it just a bad combination. Maybe the components don't jive even though they are balanced when assembled?

Is that what you mean by out of spec?

Edited by Jayton
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We're talking about 100 miles before I hear the compressor wheel start 'squeeling'. And yes the same shop has been doing the rebuilds. I haven't gone elsewhere because I honestly feel they are not doing anything wrong, not that I haven't thought about having it done elsewhere. One reason I don't believe they are doing anything wrong is because i purchased a used 20G from someone last season to use while mine was being rebuilt and I toasted that one also. It was in good condition when I got it.

 

What could a rebuilder do wrong that would cause this?

Edited by Jayton
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Could it be inproper balancing or a lack of lubrication to the bearings???? Have you checked your oil line feed line to the turbo??? P.S. If your eating the same turbo that often id say its the rebuild.

 

CALIBER 308

Edited by Caliber308
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Jayton, check out the new tials... you'll probaly want the new bypass vlave they came up with.

 

Alpha Q Recirculating Blow-Off-Valve

High Flow and a Happy MAF Sensor

 

New for 2008 is the first ever recirculating blow-off-valve offered by TiAL. This unique 50mm BOV flows 6% more than the current vent-to-atmosphere BOV we offer, bolts on to any standard TiAL 50mm flange (slip-fit beaded ends will also be available so you can run it in-line with couplers). It will be available in all current colors we offer.

 

Taken from www.tialsport.com

 

Ill probably be running the new Q version.

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So did you prime the turbo well with oil on first startups?

 

But yeah I would bet money that the blow off valve not opening soon enough won't solely kill a well built turbo. My first Starion didn't have any BOV/Bypass valve and I put a big 16G on, boosted 16/18lbs drove it hard all the time, and it ran a good 60-70k miles, with NO BOV, it probably had more life but I rebuilt the motor & turbo at that point.

 

It made a noise that didn't sound good, kinda a chirping noise, like lots of WRC cars do/did. I wouldn't recommend running with no BOV but this was back in the day before they were a popular bolt on. I'm still surprised it didn't tweak the impeller shaft though.

 

But who has been rebuilding it? Sounds like maybe the bearing surface area was over polished, or sand/bead blasting during rebuild, and bored too large. Have they measured, or have you measured the diameter of the bearing surface area?

 

-GCNTSi.

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this is deff an oil relate'd problem , eather the turbo is not geting proper oil volume or some thing is intermidently blocking the oil supply

was the oil feed line replace'd at any time,, check it for volume of flow as well as pressure,, unbolt it from the turbo and run it into a container,, at idle you won't harm the turbo runing a moment or so to check oil flow , you should have a very good flow of oil out of the line and under pressure so don't try useing a coffee cup ;)

maybe a rubber hose from the line end into a 2 liter plastic bottle

 

ever turbo rebuilder i have ever heard of requires that the oil feed line be new when turbo is install'd

 

the houseing can also be block'd under the fiting or in the oil passages in the houseing , but it's deff got an oil supply problem

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I emailed my turbo rebuilder (G-Pop Shop) yesterday to ask him to recap my rebuild history with him and to give me the specs on my turbo and this is what he said:

 

"Hello Jason,

 

Yes, it has been a while. Yes, we can give you as much information as possible about your turbo. We would also say that no, your combo is not the best, but that it can be and was perfectly balanced as an assembly and also as a complete cartridge. We did also tell you the last time we thought that a straight 20G would be the best choice overall, but that it would mean the compressor housing would need to be polished.

 

Your compressor wheel is a Garrett T04E 57 trim wheel machined to fit a TD06-20G compressor housing and CHRA, the center section is a TD06 with a TD06 turbine wheel, the turbine housing is a stock unit machined for a TD06 turbine wheel. In the last rebuild the compressor wheel, turbine shaft, thrust ting, thrust collar/flinger, journal bearings, thrust bearing and all seals were replace with new pieces. The thrust bearing was upgraded to a steel unit (sometimes called a "monster" or "Texas") this bearing has extra oiling passages to supply more oil to the thrust surfaces of the bearing. The only part that was used in your last turbo was the bearing housing, this part was totally cleaned, all critical dimensions check and verified to meet OEM specs and/or be below them. And, again then all of the parts where balanced individually, as an assembly and then as a complete unit.

 

Your original turbo that you shipped in was a TC05 that had been upgraded with a 57 trim T04E compressor whee it had a TC05 turbine wheel in the stock housing. The bearing on the original turbo we grooved like a record player, the grooves were deep all the way around like oil contamination. We did not rebuild this TC05 CHRA for you, we updated it with a TD05H CHRA and machined the turbine housing for the larger TD05H turbine wheel. When you shipped this turbo back to us the shaft was blued and had bearing transfer on the journal areas as is common with low or lack of lubrication. There were also hot spots on the thrust parts, which is a normal sign of lack or low lubrication. We rebuilt this unit the same way and with the same types of parts (meaning no upgrades or modifications where required). The last turbo that you sent back had all of these same signs nothing had changed, blued shaft, bearing transfer and hot spots on the thrust parts.

 

We hope this helps you with your diagnosis, let us know if you have any other questions or if you need anything else. Thank you"--

 

So it seems that I have a lubrication issue, but one that I cannot find in order to correct. I have performed all tests possible to confirm that oil pressure and volume to and from the turbo are sufficient and all checked out OK. I just don't know what else to check. Any ideas are welcome as I really need to figure this out before I go for another rebuild.

And yes I always make sure I have plenty of volume from the oil feed line before installing on a freshly rebuilt turbo and I am using a stainless steel braided feed line, not a stock line. I have removed and checked the line for obstruction and it is fine.

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Have you ever asked the turbo rebuilder (if they know)as to how much oil flow is needed for this turbo?? The stainless steel braided oil feed line that was designed to feed a TDO5 12A might not be enough. If the shaft is "BLUEING" Its running too hot!!!! I.E. lack of lubrication.

 

CALIBER 308

Edited by Caliber308
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Search the site for some threads with Boosted_One in them.. He talked about how his Garrett needed a restrictor in the oil feed because he initially went too large with the line. I'll try and find them also.

 

I don't suspect your shop is inferior either, G-pop-shop does good work.

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i've been runing an 05 exh wheel and shaft on my 20g for many yrs with no problems at all with the stock oil feed line ,,, i'd sugest you remove that SS oil feed line and for test purpouses go back to oem metal line , some thing is deff happening to the oil supply with that line on there,, or the fitting seat is shuting off oil supply in some way once it's tighten'd down , be sure to remove all the adaptor fitings and inspect them also

 

i bet if you remove the oil return hose you'l see it gets very little oil

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Search the site for some threads with Boosted_One in them.. He talked about how his Garrett needed a restrictor in the oil feed because he initially went too large with the line. I'll try and find them also.

 

I don't suspect your shop is inferior either, G-pop-shop does good work.

 

Yeah Gerry at G-Pop is VERY knowledgable and a real stand up guy.

 

I have read that Honda's and other normally aspirated cars need restrictors in the oil feed line when installing turbo's due to the extrememly high oil pressure/volume. So I'm thinking I could be getting either too much oil or not enough. The problem is how do I know without destroying another turbo?

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i've been runing an 05 exh wheel and shaft on my 20g for many yrs with no problems at all with the stock oil feed line ,,, i'd sugest you remove that SS oil feed line and for test purpouses go back to oem metal line , some thing is deff happening to the oil supply with that line on there,, or the fitting seat is shuting off oil supply in some way once it's tighten'd down , be sure to remove all the adaptor fitings and inspect them also

 

i bet if you remove the oil return hose you'l see it gets very little oil

 

I know for a fact that the oil feed line is not clogged, but i do need to check all fittings and also make sure they are not restricting flow where they seat (like you said) or by having too small of an inside diameter at any point. I am using a 90 degree fitting and an adapter into the CHRA.

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hey just sugesting things to check /test,, also all SS hose is not create'd equal, the inner liners diff in material and size

SS brake hoses are very common to have interior liners go bad and plug ,block or stop fluid flow

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All suggestion are seriously considered and checked and are appreciated. I desperately need to fix this for good. I believe the oil feed line is one of TEP's peices. I purchased iy a long time ago. I'm all for changing it if needed, but last time I checked it was fine/clear.

 

I really want to determine if the fittings are too restrictive somehow. I have 2 90 degree fittings at the turbo. One 90 is part of the hose assembly and the other goes between the hose and the stock adapter on the CHRA. At the oil filter there is a 45 degree fitting which is part of the hose assembly which screws directly onto the stock male fitting.

 

I will post pics of them and the sizes (inside diameters) soon.

Edited by Jayton
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place a drain pan under the car, remove the oil drain back hose, add a length of hose from turbo oil out down to the pan,,plug the timeing cover hole where the hose was,, start the engine and watch how much oil is flowing out of the turbo,,it should have a good steady flow ,,it won't fly out cause it'l have almost no pressure but a good steady steam,, remember to recheck and refill the engine oil when done testing ,if it is not geting oil flow,,leave it like that untill you do get a good oil flow, do not plug the oil fed line with a pressure gauge,, flow is more important then pressure , a dead end line will show pressure with little or no volume of oil flow

the amount of oil flow will change with engine rpms due to changes in pressure

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looking at your Pic of you motor looks like you have a small rad. hose Just a thought make sure the coolent lines are all in good shape and not mostly pluged up and make sure they are flowing the right way I dont know cant tell if you change where they come from. Its a thought any how.
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place a drain pan under the car, remove the oil drain back hose, add a length of hose from turbo oil out down to the pan,,plug the timeing cover hole where the hose was,, start the engine and watch how much oil is flowing out of the turbo,,it should have a good steady flow ,,it won't fly out cause it'l have almost no pressure but a good steady steam,, remember to recheck and refill the engine oil when done testing ,if it is not geting oil flow,,leave it like that untill you do get a good oil flow, do not plug the oil fed line with a pressure gauge,, flow is more important then pressure , a dead end line will show pressure with little or no volume of oil flow

the amount of oil flow will change with engine rpms due to changes in pressure

 

I performed this exact test last summer. My turbo rebuilder gave me a specific amount of oil that should come from the return line in a 30 second period at idle. I forget the the specific volume he told me, but my car passed the test. I saw the exact amount of oil he said i should.

 

This is why I am so baffled. Everything I have checked checks out OK.

 

I am thinking that I am somehow losing oil pressure/volume at higher RPM's 'cause everything checks out OK at idle. What would cause a change in pressure or volume at higher RPM's. ANything having to do with where the oil to the turbo originates between the block and the oil filter?

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