garychoffmann Posted December 14, 2008 Report Share Posted December 14, 2008 (edited) Well, let me say that I have had a few quests. All of my others have either been MPI or they have been stock with hard pipes. So here is how I'll describe my car. It's a FOOKING mess. I bought the car sight unseen. I open the hood and look at the guy and just say Holy *$%^**& What happened. It looks like a rabid badger attacked the hoses, vac lines, wiring and somebody tried to rig it to get it home. I bought the car with the understanding that it had a bad oil leak on the oil feed line for the turbo and that it also would not boost. Oil leak I thought easy enough fix. So I clean up the engine lines a bit and fill it with oil to check the leak. I tightened up everything and started her up. Funny, no leak? let it idle for 10 minutes, not a drop. Well I think I got lucky, no oil coming out, must have been a loose connection. Move on to the turbo. Spins freely, no in out/side to side. Check the manifold, no visible cracks, Hmmn. Start it up and hook a vac/boost gauge up. I rev it to see if I get anything. Moves freely to 0. So I ran it up to about 4k-4500 and saw the blow off valve moving in and out a bit. SO igive it a good rev and get hosed with oil from the BOV, I don't mean a mist, I mean Oil shoots out. So I know the the first check would be the oil seals in the turbo, but I also want to know what the majority of you with in depth quest knowledge would want me to check. It has a breather on the valve cover, so it leads me to think there may be other things plugged, blocked etc. Aside from bad oil seals, I don't believe it's bad rings, for that much oil to get back to the BOV they would have to be gone, and the car really hasn't hit boost yet. Idles steady. Thanks for any info you guys can give and let me know if you want some pictures. Thanks Edited January 9, 2009 by garychoffmann Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LazarusTsi Posted December 14, 2008 Report Share Posted December 14, 2008 does the car have blue smoke coming out of the exhaust? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LazarusTsi Posted December 14, 2008 Report Share Posted December 14, 2008 could be a blown head gasket Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garychoffmann Posted December 14, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 14, 2008 No blue smoke. I took off the pipe going from the intercooler to the throttle body. Car ran with that pipe unhooked. Rev'd it slightly and you could see the oil coming out of the intercooler pipe so it looks like it's just bad oil seals. Unfortunately the intercooler must be filled with oil. I'm going to have to guess on the oil seals being bad. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
86TSiGuy Posted December 14, 2008 Report Share Posted December 14, 2008 Sounds like it's not too bad. Almost for sure that's the oil seal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indiana Posted December 14, 2008 Report Share Posted December 14, 2008 Oil seals shot in a turbo means so are the bearings and the shaft. Oil seals in a turbo do not leak boost pressure EVER. Oil pressure fed to the turbo to lubricate it is say 80psi how did boost over come that oil pressure? Say the oil pressure is lower like 35psi then the motor isn't rev'd up making boost so still no boost leaking. The oil could have came from a few places but for there to be oil like that in the intercooler there must be an oil separator- A bad pcv valve blowing it from the crankcase through the separator could be its only problem and its accumulated over time. A cracked ring, melted piston and maybe perhaps a headgasket but I doubt it could push oil again through the separator and it end up in the intercooler. Can you route the compressor directly to the throttlebody and temporarily bypass the intercooler and its plumbing? The pcv could be good and the separator clogged up and that crankcase pressure from running the engine under boost would push oil through it and into the turbo inlet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garychoffmann Posted December 14, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 14, 2008 Oil seals shot in a turbo means so are the bearings and the shaft. Oil seals in a turbo do not leak boost pressure EVER. Oil pressure fed to the turbo to lubricate it is say 80psi how did boost over come that oil pressure? Say the oil pressure is lower like 35psi then the motor isn't rev'd up making boost so still no boost leaking. The oil could have came from a few places but for there to be oil like that in the intercooler there must be an oil separator- A bad pcv valve blowing it from the crankcase through the separator could be its only problem and its accumulated over time. A cracked ring, melted piston and maybe perhaps a headgasket but I doubt it could push oil again through the separator and it end up in the intercooler. Can you route the compressor directly to the throttlebody and temporarily bypass the intercooler and its plumbing? The pcv could be good and the separator clogged up and that crankcase pressure from running the engine under boost would push oil through it and into the turbo inlet. You know, I wasn't really thinking about the seperator. I think the whole system is bypassed, or hacked up. That would make some sense. The valve cover has a breather on it instead of the line going to the seperator. (if I remember correctly the back port on the valve cover went to the seperator) Also, I would say the oil pressure is on the high side 80psi at idle, I'll double check the PSI. Can anyone point me to a picture or diagram of a correctly routed engine. I'll see if I can post a fe pictures of my mess. Thanks guys, you never disappoint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garychoffmann Posted December 14, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 14, 2008 http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh6/GaryCHoffmann/DSCN0446.jpg http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh6/GaryCHoffmann/DSCN0443.jpg http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh6/GaryCHoffmann/DSCN0444.jpg http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh6/GaryCHoffmann/DSCN0445.jpg http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh6/GaryCHoffmann/starionengine.jpg What should oil pressure be? i'm between 70-80 psi at idle, when I rev I peg over 100psi. Let me know what you guys see and what you see needs to be addressed immediately. Thanks again guys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garychoffmann Posted December 15, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 15, 2008 Well, It's a blown turbo. I unhooked the turbo to intercooler pipe and left it loose. I stuck a screwdriver in the side of the coupler and reved the engine and it just started throwing oil out. Oh, well, nothing like a trashed super 16g. But, I had to move the car and it has the infamous clutch doesn't go in far enough to actually disengage the clutch. Hooray, this car is a POS. Be on the lookout for a semi built rust free car being parted............ (probably not, I'm just pissed) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indiana Posted December 15, 2008 Report Share Posted December 15, 2008 That engine bay is all hacked up. Who owned this car and did that? On second thought maybe you shouldn't tell that. A FPR on the frame rail? -scary place for one if a motor mount goes or there is a starter issue. What is that thing on the top of the coil? Loving that turbo coolant hose you are holding. Someone painted a valve cover and tried to pretty up a butt ugly greasy mess it looks like to me. Aftermarket radiator might have some value. Big waste of money using tbolt clamps on the turbo inlet there is zero pressure there no need for 15.00 in clamps with 2.00 in clamps will suffice. If I had to take a guess I'd say that there was a separator on there until just very recently and that is why the intercooler is full of oil then it was removed by someone saying that is why there was oil there and it wasn't ever cleaned out. Does that turbo spin? If it does how much play inthe shaft is there? A rebuild kit if it didn't rub is about 75.00. So what do the plugs look like? Compression? If there are any convertors I bet they are full of oil. What can and may have happened if you have a dead cylinder is that oil went directily into the intake manifold in a liquid state, not mist, and it was mixing with the fuel and one of those pistons has a big hole in it you can put your finger in to. At that point the little filter went on the back of the valve cover and it was still not running right then it was put up for sale but that's just my guess. I have seen a piston melted from having oil pouring into the intake after the intercooler was filled up. If compression pressure is allowed to then enter with a separator it will blow almost all the oil out of the crankcase and into the intake but an intercooler will hold most of it. Detonation may have caused a hole. This is all just speculation of course. The compressor housing could still have oil laying it in from when this all happened and it won't blow out all at once. If that is just a dead turbo you are very lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shelby Posted December 15, 2008 Report Share Posted December 15, 2008 befor you go riping and tearing,, remove the pcv valve odds are it's an na valve,, next remove that filter from the valve cover,, do a compression test and a leak down test to check for bad piston ring lands now check the engineoil for gas in it,,and if it feels thin change it, better yet change it any way,,that way you know for sure how many miles are on it and what weight it is,, try to stay away from real thin oil 5-30 use the thickest oil weight you can get away with ,,this is NOT a 200* engine now from the sec to last pic it apears to be the turbo return coolant hose is plug'd ,, if that hose is going to the water pump,,it should go to the turbo,, unless it's an early style engine with the return to the metal pipe,, eather way the pipe hole is the one to plug,,the one on the water pump uses suction to pull coolant into the turbo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garychoffmann Posted December 16, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 16, 2008 Yeah, a compression test is coming. I really don't want to do one. It's idles and revs well. I have that to hope on at the moment. If the oil seperator is gone, wouldn't the pcv be disabled or not there alltogether. Where should it be on this car? I really need to tear into this car but I'm not having fun with it so far. Thanks for the help. I've never had a modded tbi before so this is all new to me. I'm thinking of just tearing it all apart, going back to stock and then adding everything back on. Lot of trouble and money but may be worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garychoffmann Posted December 16, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 16, 2008 Oh yeah, turbo has no movement in it at all. Spins extremely easy. The thing on the coil is a Fubar accelerator. Once you put it on the car it then goes to shite quickly untill it's F'd up beyond recognition. you know what really sucks about this car. I thought I knew alot about these cars, and if you ask me a question I could probably answer it. But then I open the hood and it turns me into an idiot that doesn't know what he's looking at. I can't get past the mess. It makes me go blank when I look at the engine. I need help on this one, just recognizing whats wrong. Good times Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shelby Posted December 16, 2008 Report Share Posted December 16, 2008 one of the first things auto zone or a chain store will do is try to sell you on maintince items,, problem is their replacement pcv valve is na only and not for turbo engines the first time the engine goes into boost oil goes every where due to boost going directly into the crank case na pcv valves are not one-way valves as a turbo pcv is the stupid little air filter on the valve cover vent is cover'd with oil and plug'd on the first run , from then on it just gets worse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indiana Posted December 16, 2008 Report Share Posted December 16, 2008 You will have to get a port on the turbo inlet tube and it can't be something that can come off and fall into the compressor blades. You may have to have it welded on you common sense on this part. http://www.b2600turbo.com/images/oilsep.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garychoffmann Posted December 16, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 16, 2008 Well, since I no longer have the oil seperator, I ordered a catch can filter (not a cheap ebay one) I'm going to try and use that. (same principle) I also ordered a pcv from dad. I talked to my friend who has a shop. We believe the oil pressure is way too high. He's a dsm guru, he doesn't think that the turbo may be bad, but there may be way too much oil pressure. Can someone modify the oil relief valve (or regulator) on these cars, or leave them out alltogether.one done this to It would have to be intentional to take it out, has any benn known for doing this to get higher oil PSI? I'm 70-80 at idle. I'm pegged at 2500 rpm's 110-120+++ thanks guys, hopefully she's on the road. Anybody happen to have 1 je piston laying around 40 over? I have 3 but I need a 4th. The car has Hyper-t pistons. I know that if you don't ring them properly or run high boost you destroy the ring lands. It's not smoking but I have to drive it before I can really tell. I'm going to lean towards pistons/rings. Well, I'm going to put in a pcv, re route the plumbing, clean out the intakes and such and go from there. Also thinking turbo could be leaking from crank case pressure. If it is running high psi, and the crank case is pressurized and the oil can't drain properly it could cause an issue. Who knows, alot of what if's at this point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indiana Posted December 16, 2008 Report Share Posted December 16, 2008 (edited) Try another gauge or sending unit first if its still high then pull the relief valve off the oil filter adapter. Could be the piston in the relief valve is stuck. If you can't get the spring to pull out you may have to remove the oil filter adapter. The valve pulls out all together so if its stuck it may just unscrew and then stop if its not stuck it pulls right out. http://www.b2600turbo.com/BE1/IM002528.JPG You should pull the spark plugs and use a light, maybe led on a flex shaft and stick that down in the cylinders and see what the piston tops look like. If they are bad crusty with carbon so is the head and valves if so I'd pull that head and clean all that off it will have your compression ratio raised and make for hot spots-the carbon will act like an insulator. Edited December 16, 2008 by Indiana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shelby Posted December 16, 2008 Report Share Posted December 16, 2008 Indana isn't that the oil cooler bypass valve ? 110-120 lbs id way too much oil pressure , your in danger of blowing the oil filter off at any moment and thats bad news Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garychoffmann Posted December 17, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2008 Does anyone have a part number for the relief valve. Or have a good one I can buy? Or hell, indiana just want to sell me that nice one you got there? I'm just going to eliminate everything at once. I need to see where the oil gauge is pulling the current reading from. It's cold and wet here so I haven't had a chance. Yeah, i'm thinking about just tearing it down. But I'd like to trouble shoot before hand. We'll see where I go from here. Thanks guys, this is killing me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad Posted December 17, 2008 Report Share Posted December 17, 2008 Pressure valve is in the oil pump, the other valve pictured is for the oil cooler- it is more like a thermostat, as oil heats up it allows more oil to flow into the cooler- I really think that has ne bearing on oil pressure.. My car can hit 100 lbs on start up, I pay more attn to what it is when engine is at operating temp. Idle hot is 25-30 lbs, Running 65-70 MPH it;s about 80 lbs if I recall- haven't driven it lately due to snow, ice, salt That is with 5w30 oil- What weight oil is in yours? Dad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garychoffmann Posted December 17, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2008 I thought the relief valve being on the filter housing was a bit odd. But I normally don't question people when I ask a question. I just put in 10-30. Haven't ran it since oil change Dad, just orderd pcv and turbo drain hose. I think you sent them out today. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indiana Posted December 17, 2008 Report Share Posted December 17, 2008 (edited) I'm laughing but at myself This is the picture I should have posted I was think about something completely different but that plunger can stick by the way I'd check it to. http://www.b2600turbo.com/images/IM003304.JPG http://www.b2600turbo.com/images/83oilpumps.jpg the part number is on this page I'd just get a new pump or possible someone took that valve apart and put the piston in wrong or had some wild idea they could put the stick from the timing chain tensioner under the relief valve plunger instead and that would prevent the valve from opening. http://www.b2600turbo.com/images/Oil%20Pu1.gif http://www.b2600turbo.com/images/tsb%2009-09-85%20pg2.jpg Edited December 17, 2008 by Indiana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garychoffmann Posted December 17, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2008 Thanks, that makes more sense, I have a fun weekend in front of me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indiana Posted December 17, 2008 Report Share Posted December 17, 2008 I meant to add something about the gauge, the gauges in this car will return to the stop when the power is off and its been a bit to popular in the past few years to change gauge faces, paint needles etc so if that gauge you have has been screwed with it could be way off from what its supposed to read as what the rest would see as "normal". You should put a mechanical gauge on the port in the side of the block and verify that. Its just behind the timing cover and above the filter adapter. I tap them for npt threads and put in a 1/8" pipe plug (at a plumbing supply they are about .05 you can get in blk steel, bare or brass) that's easier to remove later when I have a block torn down, they are british threads originally so you have to get an adapter but most just screw in the wrong thread gauge and hope it seals. http://www.b2600turbo.com/images/IM009703.JPG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garychoffmann Posted December 17, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2008 I never go off a factory gauge, This car had mechanical gauges installed. I need to see where it's tapped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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