techboy Posted September 19, 2011 Report Share Posted September 19, 2011 (edited) Exactly like the title says. By driving my car daily for the first time since owning b/c my truck didn't pass inspection due to emission. So, for the past 3 weeks I've been driving the Quest. Started out fine, but the last few days I was getting harder and harder to start. Now, it just cranks but won't start. Car has (within the last 500 miles) new battery, new alternator, new plugs, wires, cap, rotor, injectors and TB rebuild. I thought it was maybe the fuel pump going, but my in-line pressure gauge is showing pressure when trying to start and it runs fine when I do get it started. Has a MSD ignitor, but I don't know how old. I feel like it's something dumb like a loose wire or ground, but I've been over the engine bay twice, no dice. So, I'm posting here. Suggestions? Edited September 21, 2011 by techboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techboy Posted September 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 (edited) I'm going to try a different ignitor coil. Edited September 28, 2011 by techboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TopDawg_43 Posted September 21, 2011 Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 You'll first need to determine if it's not getting fuel or fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techboy Posted September 28, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 28, 2011 Replaced the ignitor coil, no change. Was doing some reading/research and I'm thinking knock-box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indiana Posted September 29, 2011 Report Share Posted September 29, 2011 The knock box on an 88 isn't a known issue for being bad. What injectors are you using? What spark plugs are you using? Do you have a heated 02 sensor? Is the cam stock? Have you looked at your spark plugs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techboy Posted September 29, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 29, 2011 (edited) I am using OEM injectors, w/ recently installed injector clips. Spark plugs are the OEM NGK's I installed about 6 months ago along w/ the blue NGK plug wires. I haven't pulled a plug to look at them, I assumed they were fine b/c they are new, but I will take a look at them. Cam is stock. What is the heated 02 sensor? I replaced the DP 02 sensor last December when I had a custom DP made. Edited October 8, 2011 by techboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shelby Posted September 29, 2011 Report Share Posted September 29, 2011 save your self a lot of time and money,,use the FSM chaptor on trouble shooting a " no Start issue" start reading page 8-138 , but before you do read the begining of the electrical system to understand how to use the informantion your given but don't work with blinders on,, check to see what your missing at start up , spark, fuel or inj pulseand do a visual inspection of all electrical connections and wire terminals , this won't take more then 15 minutes or so to narrow down what your looking for and then go from there , it is posible to have several things wrong at one time so don't stop till you've cover'd all bases Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techboy Posted October 1, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 1, 2011 Believe it or not, I checked that FSM first. Mine is an 89, so I'm reading on page 8-130. There are 4 bullets listed: check ignition coil, check distributor, check power transistor, and check plugs. That's why I did the coil first. The only one I have a question about is the power transistor ... what is that and where is that? I'm an electronics teacher, so my brain is picturing like a small 3-prong 3904 or 3906 transistor, but I'm guessing that's not it ... lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techboy Posted October 1, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 1, 2011 After poking around this morning w/ my multimeter, I'm pretty sure it's my ECI relay that's bad. I ran a jumper from the battery to the fuel pump test port and got the same exact voltage reading as my battery back in the trunk at the E-17 harness. I can also clearly hear smooth operation of my pump w/ the jumper. However, If I remove the jumper, and just key forward, I'm only reading .02 volts at the E-17 harness, which means I'm getting no voltage from the ECI to the pump. Unless I'm doing something wrong w/ this test, that has to be the problem. I also checked the ECI fusible link for corrosion, it seems to be fine. And my new coil reads w/in the Ohm specs given in the FSM. I think the only thing left is the ECI relay. Anyone know if they are still available and where to get them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indiana Posted October 1, 2011 Report Share Posted October 1, 2011 The control relay has two relays inside, one is for the pump and from the ignition key controlling it, the fuel pump is only closed while in the cranking position not the run position. After the engine starts and the ECU gets a tach signal it sends out voltage to keep the fump relay closed. If the engine dies that causs the fuel pump to shut down. You have a wiring diagram? When the ignition key is in the run position, you should see if the ECU gets power. The ECU is only fuel control, the ignition system on this car is separate. What year is this car? 84-87 use an ignitor that's in a plastic box they sealed it up in some type of resin, they crack inside and fail. 88/89 is just the board inside a tin box. Power comes through the ECI fuse link in that holder behind the battery. There's a second back up power wire to. The wiring diagram for the ECI circuits is in section 14 of the service manual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shelby Posted October 1, 2011 Report Share Posted October 1, 2011 don't forget to check ign power to coil + while cranking , quick easy to see if the main relay is close'd is to check for inj power and voltage to CTS , be sure to inspect the wire terminals to all sensors and try the spark test useing a screw driver across the reluctor poles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techboy Posted October 3, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2011 Pretty much rained here all day today ... so I couldn't work on the car. Once it clears up I'll post up where I'm at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techboy Posted October 8, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 8, 2011 So it's finally beautiful out today and I had a chance to look at the car some more. I decided to pull the plugs, which is probably the first thing I should have done instead of busting out the multimeter and messing around w/ the fuel pump. Anyway, the plugs are totally fouled black. Now, mind you, these plugs are about 6 months old and have maybe 300 miles on them. Stock BPR NGK's. At first I thought it was oil, which would make sense for a higher milage engine with rings starting to go south, but it definitely smells like fuel to me. In my experience, that's a symptom of running rich. Now .... my question: why would a completely stock car w/ a recently rebuilt TB and new OEM injectors be running rich? Oh ... and I'll add - Idle fuel pressure is within spec also. I just replaced my coil, could this happen if the coil was sending a weak spark? I don't recall when I replaced the old plugs them being totally black. That would suggest a good mixture previously. I'm gonna clean these plugs up and see if it'll fire. If so, I'm going to go ahead order the BUR plugs everyone says are a bit better and go from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shelby Posted October 9, 2011 Report Share Posted October 9, 2011 if your still TBI it may mean your staying in open loop all the time , even if every thing else is perfict the ecu won't know that and thinks it's real cold out so it runs the fuel mix way rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indiana Posted October 9, 2011 Report Share Posted October 9, 2011 Unplug the blue injector to make sure you have the correct plug on the primary. It should start and idle with that green one not plugged in. A leak in the intercooler system or a leaking BOV if you have one can foul plugs because the air doesn't make it to the cylinders that was metered by the MAF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techboy Posted October 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 Shelby and Indiana - thanks for those thoughts. The possibility of being stuck in open loop makes a lot of sense to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starfighterpilot Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 if your still TBI it may mean your staying in open loop all the time , even if every thing else is perfict the ecu won't know that and thinks it's real cold out so it runs the fuel mix way rich I agree with Shelby - the EFI ECU may be staying in open loop all the time for some reason. My '88 does this about once every 2 - 3 years and behaves the way you describe. I have found that by disconnecting the neg terminal from the battery and letting her sit for about 5 minutes or so, and then reconnecting neg terminal, allows the EFI ECU and all of the other computers in the car to clean out and reset. I start her back up and everything is fine - until she has another "menopause moment." Letting the car sit electrically dead for about 5 minutes and then reconnecting the battery is sort of like shutting down & restarting or rebooting your computer when it gets locked up. You have probably done this but I thought that I'd just throw it out there. For What It's Worth. KEN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techboy Posted October 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 Starfighter ... I actually haven't done that. But, things haven't gotten any better either. I cleaned the plugs all up and put them back in today and it still cranked and wouldn't start. So I figured, I'll swap out the ECI relay. So I did that. Now, it won't even crank. Just nothing other than a bunch of clicking coming from the dash and bizarre lights going off. I'm not sure what's going on, but I'm totally frustrated at this point. I thought maybe the battery went dead since it was sitting for a few weeks now, but I tried jumping it w/ the truck and same result. So, now I'm worse off than I was this morning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starfighterpilot Posted October 11, 2011 Report Share Posted October 11, 2011 Starfighter ... I actually haven't done that. But, things haven't gotten any better either. I cleaned the plugs all up and put them back in today and it still cranked and wouldn't start. So I figured, I'll swap out the ECI relay. So I did that. Now, it won't even crank. Just nothing other than a bunch of clicking coming from the dash and bizarre lights going off. I'm not sure what's going on, but I'm totally frustrated at this point. I thought maybe the battery went dead since it was sitting for a few weeks now, but I tried jumping it w/ the truck and same result. So, now I'm worse off than I was this morning. Your problem may be a number of things in the electrical wiring by the battery or in the fuse block under the drivers side dash cuz you are not getting sufficient voltage to the ignition switch as evidenced by the lites going "bizarre" and now the engine won't roll with the starter. The first thing I would do is disconnect the battery neg terminal from the pole and start slowly charging the battery with a battery charger set at the maintenance setting (2 Amps). Then pull Nos. 1 & 13 fuses in the fuse block and check them for being blown. I'd also slightly crimp the metal tangs/connectors which hold the fuse in to make sure they are tight. I'd also check those tangs/connectors for evidence of pitting or corrosion. Hook the neg terminal back up to the battery after it's charged and see if this helps. The next thing I would do is check ALL of the grounds in the engine house for corrosion/tightness per this link http://starquest.i-x...f9ed572435e20f5 and especially the ground No. 4 that is by the EFI ECU under the passenger side of the dash. The next area that is most probably the problem is the electrical wiring/connectors in the vicinity of the battery. Pull the battery, it's tray and the metal plate covering the relays out board of the battery. Use the below two links to clean and trouble shoot your positive side of the Starquests electrical system. http://starquest.i-x...opic.php?t=1180 And use this link as a reference as to what I found when I had bizarre (I like that word) electrical problems going on in my Old Broad. The causes of my problems were that the White AWG 10 and the white with black tracer wiring (these two wire power the whole starquest) were toasted because of corrosion that somehow got inside of the wiring insulation and Mitsu, at the factory, installed a THICK black heat shrink over the white AWG 10 power wire coming out of connector A-33/34 causing the wire insulation to deteroriate over 24 years. It's a long read where I describe the craziness that was going on electrically, but it has a lot of damn good electrical info & pictures. http://starquest.i-x...opic.php?t=3747 ESPECIALLY check electrical connector A-33/34, by disassembling it, and the wiring going to it from fusible link box 2 for ANY signs of overheating . If there is any replace it. You stated in one of your replies above that you checked the EFI fusible link but be sure to check all of the links - even those out board of the battery behind the metal panel. If you still have electrical problems after checking/doing the above, the ignition switch IG1 contact may be deeply pitted/corroded and you should replace the igniton switch with new from Mitsu -they are only about $40 and worth every penny. They are still available. Use the '88 FSM, Section 8, page 8-48-50 as your guide for the wiring layouts and 8 - 10 & 11for the grounding locations. For What It's Worth. KEN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techboy Posted October 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2011 Well, I slow charged the battery last night overnight and tried to crank it again today when I got home from work. It's cranking again, so I guess I had just sapped the battery with all the cranking. But, it still won't fire. I'm still convinced it's not getting spark. The pump runs when I run 12V to it, I can smell fuel after cranking, and I can here the ECI relay clicking in the passenger side dash when I turn the key .... so ..... When I have time, probably next weekend, I'm going to go through the electrical stuff above and see what I can find. I did start peeking at the grounds already ... and I think I'm going order all new fusible links from Dad just for the heck of it. (They'll come in handy down the road anyway). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indiana Posted October 12, 2011 Report Share Posted October 12, 2011 Did this car ever run? If your injectors aren't leaking but you can smell fuel but it won't start that means the ECU must have got a tach signal or it won't have fired the injectors for you to smell fuel. If you lay the coil wire from the dist. cap right up next to the negative battery post and crank it, do you see a spark? If you have spark, have you tired starter fluid? I don't remember and I didn't look but did you check compression on this motor? If you have compression, fuel and spark and it won't run then the distributor may be way out of time. Put a timing light on it and while cranking, what does the timing show on the crank pulley/timing cover? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starfighterpilot Posted October 12, 2011 Report Share Posted October 12, 2011 Did this car ever run? If your injectors aren't leaking but you can smell fuel but it won't start that means the ECU must have got a tach signal or it won't have fired the injectors for you to smell fuel.If you lay the coil wire from the dist. cap right up next to the negative battery post and crank it, do you see a spark? If you have spark, have you tired starter fluid? I don't remember and I didn't look but did you check compression on this motor? If you have compression, fuel and spark and it won't run then the distributor may be way out of time. Put a timing light on it and while cranking, what does the timing show on the crank pulley/timing cover? Yes it did run if you read the OP, and then it went down hill. That's why I think that it is an de-generating electrical problem and gave the references in my above reply. For What It's Worth. KEN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shelby Posted October 12, 2011 Report Share Posted October 12, 2011 always go back to the basics,, and asume NOTHINGand do not dry off spark plugs replace them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techboy Posted October 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2011 Indiana - like Star said, it did run. Actually, it was running as well it has ever run since I got it. One day it just wouldn't start, it was running fine the previous day. Coil wire does spark. Haven't tried starter fluid. Shelby, typically I do replace spark plugs, but I wanted to order the BUR's, since I have the BRP's right now. I'm currently waiting for them to come in. The other thing though, those plugs probably only have about 300 miles on them so I thought if I cleaned them up w/ some brake fluid and put them back in I could at least figure out if the plugs were the problem ... but they're obviously not. Question:If I take the OVCP off and have my wife crank the car, should I be able to feel the injector spray in the TB while cranking? I want to triple check fuel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indiana Posted October 12, 2011 Report Share Posted October 12, 2011 Looking into the throttle opening while cranking you will see this... http://www.b2600turbo.com/IM009687.AVIhttp://www.b2600turbo.com/IM009688.AVI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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