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Wilwood big brake setup


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#1 Maxzillian

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Posted 17 April 2011 - 10:29 PM

Over the last few months I've been working on a major overhaul to the brakes of my Conquest. I have finally concluded the front brake setup as of today and will begin working on the rear system very soon.

This system uses Wilwood 12.72" diameter and 1.25" wide rotors. Due to the width of the rotor and the size of the caliper this setup will only fit a rear 8" or 9" wheel. I have yet to determine what width spacer would be required to fit the stock front 16x7 or 16x8 wheels. I suspect that if a 0.81" wide rotor is used, they may be able to fit with little or no spacers. I will check into this later.

The part numbers for the rotors, calipers and hats are:
Rotor: 160-2540 and 160-2541
Calipers: 120-11136
Hat: 170-7632

Both of these fit without any necessary modifications to the wheel hubs or the rotor hats. A number of the rotor hats Wilwood offers do not have a large enough centering hole so to find a hat with not only the right offset, but a centering hole that is perfect within 0.010" was to me the holy grail of brake parts. ;) I did, however, modify my wheel hub to use longer press-in wheel studs and drilled and tapped the hubs for rotor retention bolts, but both of these modifications are not 100% necessary.

Eventually I will post up the prints for the mounting brackets, but that will have to wait until I make my bracket for the other side of the car as I forgot to measure a few components before mounting everything up. So for now, enjoy the pictures.

Bigger rotors...
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Bigger pads... It's safe to say this is all overkill for regular street tires.
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Because these are two piece rotors, safety wire is absolutely mandatory for the retaining hardware. DO NOT forget this!
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Drilled and tapped wheel hub for the rotor retention bolts.
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The bracket is pretty simple. It is made from 3/8" steel plate and uses two spacers that are 0.44" thick. Each spacer has a flat ground into it for clearance with the strut housing. I ultimately chose to weld these spacers to the mounting plate as I wanted to ensure that the shear point for the bolt was as close to the caliper mounts as possible.

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Because of the extreme width of the rotor and caliper, the caliper actually has to be mounted behind the factory location for everything to clear the wheel without a spacer. If the caliper and rotor was moved any closer towards the center of the car (if you were to try to make it clear 16x7 wheels), the rotor will begin to interfere with the lower ball joint of the strut.
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Most of the hardware has to be shortened to fit flush with the mount as the rotor to mount clearance is only about 0.125".
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Included with the D2 struts was a set of what appeared to be brake line holders. They didn't seem to fit anywhere in particular, but with a hole in the proper place and mount of the holder cut off, it works almost identically to the factory hardware.
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Because race car. :)
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Before:
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After:
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And so, onto the prints! Now I will make it clear that these are for open distribution and not to be used for profit! Or at least if you do, help a pal out. ;)

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Left caliper mount:
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Right caliper mount:
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Edited by Maxzillian, 06 June 2011 - 09:44 PM.

What's the fun in making something simple?

'87 TSI - StarOrion braided brake lines, StarOrion radiator, StarOrion alternator, StarOrion 2.5" stainless exhaust w/Magnaflow muffler, 1G MAS, Competition Clutch 15 lb flywheel, Competition Clutch Stage 4 clutch, Mookeh polyurethane bushings, ABS elimination, 8:1 Wiseco Pistons, TD05 14G turbocharger, Axiss ceramic rear brake pages, Hawk HP+ front pads, heat wrapped and ported exhaust manifold/turbine housing, Accusump oil accumulator, remote oil filter, NJV head, EVO intercooler, remote battery, D2 coil over struts, flatty front struts and control arms, 8" non-SHP wheels all four corners, 12.75"x1.25" front rotors with 4 pot Wilwood calipers, manual brakes using dual master cylinders and balance bar, gutted (deleted) brake proportioning valve and modified steering pump speed sensitive valve.





#2 NudeLobster

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Posted 17 April 2011 - 10:47 PM

you are my hero <3 what calipers are you running? PN? Screw that ebay BBK, I like yours :D

-Justin

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#3 Maxzillian

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Posted 17 April 2011 - 11:14 PM

Mine technically aren't made anymore. What spawned this whole project was a purchase of four used calipers off eBay. :lol:

The current equivalent would be 120-11136

http://wilwood.com/C...temno=120-11136

These are actually slightly narrower by about 0.375" total width.

Edited by Maxzillian, 17 April 2011 - 11:16 PM.

What's the fun in making something simple?

'87 TSI - StarOrion braided brake lines, StarOrion radiator, StarOrion alternator, StarOrion 2.5" stainless exhaust w/Magnaflow muffler, 1G MAS, Competition Clutch 15 lb flywheel, Competition Clutch Stage 4 clutch, Mookeh polyurethane bushings, ABS elimination, 8:1 Wiseco Pistons, TD05 14G turbocharger, Axiss ceramic rear brake pages, Hawk HP+ front pads, heat wrapped and ported exhaust manifold/turbine housing, Accusump oil accumulator, remote oil filter, NJV head, EVO intercooler, remote battery, D2 coil over struts, flatty front struts and control arms, 8" non-SHP wheels all four corners, 12.75"x1.25" front rotors with 4 pot Wilwood calipers, manual brakes using dual master cylinders and balance bar, gutted (deleted) brake proportioning valve and modified steering pump speed sensitive valve.

#4 Lance_S

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Posted 18 April 2011 - 03:56 PM

wow, very nice.
Hardpipes, MAFT, GM MAS, 3" DP, 2.5" exhaust, 950/1050 Trilogy injectors, K&N filter, Machined and balance flywheel 23 lbs, short shift, 88/89 tranny, HD ACT clutch, DSM EVO3 S16g ported (21 psi), polished and clipped, NJV head (ported), larger SS Valves, Schneider springs, Ajusa HG, Adjustable FPR, MBC, BOV, MSD coil, Walbro 255, ABS, EGR and balance shaft elim, 88/89 ECU, UEGO 02, new or rebuilt everything.

My feedback:  http://www.starquest...howtopic=127993

#5 Convette

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Posted 18 April 2011 - 07:21 PM

I can't even begin to tell how thankfull I am you did this.  You are f- in awesome.  Please keep us posted as to how it does once you get the test it out.  Great work man.

#6 Casey_L

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Posted 20 April 2011 - 02:16 PM

Yeah great job max, I will plan on copying you this summer! Thanks for doing all the hard work!
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#7 Cloud81918

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Posted 20 April 2011 - 02:26 PM

How much for a set of the mounting plates if you were to make copies?
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#8 Maxzillian

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Posted 20 April 2011 - 08:45 PM

I'm afraid I won't be in the business of fabricating mounts. I may have a band saw, drill press, and a lathe to help me fabricate these parts, but each bracket takes about 2 hours to make. You'll be able to find a local machine shop that can make the parts for you a lot cheaper than it'd cost for me to do it.
What's the fun in making something simple?

'87 TSI - StarOrion braided brake lines, StarOrion radiator, StarOrion alternator, StarOrion 2.5" stainless exhaust w/Magnaflow muffler, 1G MAS, Competition Clutch 15 lb flywheel, Competition Clutch Stage 4 clutch, Mookeh polyurethane bushings, ABS elimination, 8:1 Wiseco Pistons, TD05 14G turbocharger, Axiss ceramic rear brake pages, Hawk HP+ front pads, heat wrapped and ported exhaust manifold/turbine housing, Accusump oil accumulator, remote oil filter, NJV head, EVO intercooler, remote battery, D2 coil over struts, flatty front struts and control arms, 8" non-SHP wheels all four corners, 12.75"x1.25" front rotors with 4 pot Wilwood calipers, manual brakes using dual master cylinders and balance bar, gutted (deleted) brake proportioning valve and modified steering pump speed sensitive valve.

#9 Convette

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Posted 20 April 2011 - 10:39 PM

I only need the plans and part numbers..  This should be a sticky.

#10 Dave-O

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Posted 27 April 2011 - 05:43 AM

Excellent info. This is priceless for those keeping the OEM suspension bits, or those that have already shelled out for D2s.  ^_^

View Postdmyers151, on 08 June 2010 - 07:29 AM, said:

I see you got that Limited Edition ish.

#11 TexasQuest

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Posted 27 April 2011 - 07:44 AM

That is sick! Does the factory wheels fit over this kit fine?
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View PostJohnnyWadd, on 04 March 2010 - 10:01 PM, said:

my shaft was big i dont know what your talking about.

#12 DzNutz

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Posted 27 April 2011 - 08:03 AM

View PostConvette, on 20 April 2011 - 10:39 PM, said:

I only need the plans and part numbers.. This should be a sticky.

X2

You doing the prints in Inventor? SolidWorks? If not I can go off your prints and see about having a single cast piece made and machined for the bracket. Would machining it out of a single block of aluminum be strong enough? Just picking your brain a bit.

#13 Maxzillian

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 08:47 PM

The stock front 7x16 front wheels won't fit without a spacer. I don't know about the 8x16 SHP wheels. The rear 8x16 TSI wheel, however, fits just fine.

The program I modeled in was a student copy of ProEngineer so the files won't be of any use to anyone. I will, however, be making 2D prints. The parts are very simple dimension wise so it shouldn't be a challenge at all to copy.
What's the fun in making something simple?

'87 TSI - StarOrion braided brake lines, StarOrion radiator, StarOrion alternator, StarOrion 2.5" stainless exhaust w/Magnaflow muffler, 1G MAS, Competition Clutch 15 lb flywheel, Competition Clutch Stage 4 clutch, Mookeh polyurethane bushings, ABS elimination, 8:1 Wiseco Pistons, TD05 14G turbocharger, Axiss ceramic rear brake pages, Hawk HP+ front pads, heat wrapped and ported exhaust manifold/turbine housing, Accusump oil accumulator, remote oil filter, NJV head, EVO intercooler, remote battery, D2 coil over struts, flatty front struts and control arms, 8" non-SHP wheels all four corners, 12.75"x1.25" front rotors with 4 pot Wilwood calipers, manual brakes using dual master cylinders and balance bar, gutted (deleted) brake proportioning valve and modified steering pump speed sensitive valve.

#14 Eirewolf

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Posted 06 May 2011 - 12:08 AM

Wilwood makes awesome brakes, I raced on them for a few years.

There is a guy called Revolution Brake that sells the Wilwood fronts as a kit, complete with the turn-key bracketry. They are very very nice. He used to road-race. He will sell uprated rotors, pads, whatever you want.

I found a guy on eBay that had a set of Wilwood brackets for the widebody starquest. I had to pay a pretty penny, but I have them now. I also have a full set of Wilwood brakes that are compatible with the Starquest brackets, the ones I raced on. Still in good shape (not the pads. ;)  ) I'm going to mount them next week, most likely. I heartily recommended Wilwoods.

#15 AndyW

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Posted 06 May 2011 - 05:20 AM

I was designing a similar setup a few years ago and got sidetracked and havnt looked at it since.  Your lighting a fire under my but now to get back into the starquest scene.  I too like the idea of keeping within the factory size wheel, be it 8's 9's what ever.  Awesome job, I always like reading about what you do to your car.
AndyW



#16 Fuze

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 02:23 PM

What master cylinder are you running with these calipers?

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#17 Maxzillian

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 11:10 PM

Temporarily I'll be using the stock master cylinder, but eventually I'll be using a dual master cylinder setup with a balance bar. I haven't determined what bore size to use yet.
What's the fun in making something simple?

'87 TSI - StarOrion braided brake lines, StarOrion radiator, StarOrion alternator, StarOrion 2.5" stainless exhaust w/Magnaflow muffler, 1G MAS, Competition Clutch 15 lb flywheel, Competition Clutch Stage 4 clutch, Mookeh polyurethane bushings, ABS elimination, 8:1 Wiseco Pistons, TD05 14G turbocharger, Axiss ceramic rear brake pages, Hawk HP+ front pads, heat wrapped and ported exhaust manifold/turbine housing, Accusump oil accumulator, remote oil filter, NJV head, EVO intercooler, remote battery, D2 coil over struts, flatty front struts and control arms, 8" non-SHP wheels all four corners, 12.75"x1.25" front rotors with 4 pot Wilwood calipers, manual brakes using dual master cylinders and balance bar, gutted (deleted) brake proportioning valve and modified steering pump speed sensitive valve.

#18 Fuze

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 01:25 PM

View PostMaxzillian, on 09 May 2011 - 11:10 PM, said:

Temporarily I'll be using the stock master cylinder, but eventually I'll be using a dual master cylinder setup with a balance bar. I haven't determined what bore size to use yet.

I just asked because I just read an article in Modified written by Mark Valskis at Brembo, regarding some big brakes actually losing braking power with a caliper change due to the volume of fluid in the pistons varying. They used the example of an STI that somebody had put huge Porsche brakes on, and just doing the swap resulted in a 30% loss of braking power over the stock setup. That was news to me, I didn't know it worked that way. Here's the link:


Modified BBK article

Edited by Fuze, 11 May 2011 - 02:23 PM.

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#19 Maxzillian

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 09:47 PM

That's because in the example provided, the Subaru caliper has 30% more piston area than the Porsche caliper. This means that when comparing them using the same hydraulic pressure from the master cylinder, the Porsche caliper would have 30% less clamping force. To combat this the brake pedal pressure applied by the driver either needs to be increased or the bore size of the master cylinder needs to be decreased.

In this case the Conquest has a single piston measuring 2.25" diameter while the Wilwoods I am using have two 1.75" pistons (since there are two pairs opposing each other, we can only use two pistons for force calculations). This adds up to a total piston area of .99 square inches for the Conquest and 1.2 square inches for the Wilwoods. Or a gain of about 21%.

Then you factor in going from a 10.87" rotor to a 12.72" rotor which is another gain of 17% which makes a total system gain of 38% over stock. :)

Granted, I've found  that in most cases that the stock brakes are more than adequate. However, for track events I found that the stock brakes could not handle the heat generated. By going to a larger rotor (thicker and larger in diameter) I am going to a system that is better at temporarily storing and displacing the heat generated by the brakes.

Edited by Maxzillian, 11 May 2011 - 09:50 PM.

What's the fun in making something simple?

'87 TSI - StarOrion braided brake lines, StarOrion radiator, StarOrion alternator, StarOrion 2.5" stainless exhaust w/Magnaflow muffler, 1G MAS, Competition Clutch 15 lb flywheel, Competition Clutch Stage 4 clutch, Mookeh polyurethane bushings, ABS elimination, 8:1 Wiseco Pistons, TD05 14G turbocharger, Axiss ceramic rear brake pages, Hawk HP+ front pads, heat wrapped and ported exhaust manifold/turbine housing, Accusump oil accumulator, remote oil filter, NJV head, EVO intercooler, remote battery, D2 coil over struts, flatty front struts and control arms, 8" non-SHP wheels all four corners, 12.75"x1.25" front rotors with 4 pot Wilwood calipers, manual brakes using dual master cylinders and balance bar, gutted (deleted) brake proportioning valve and modified steering pump speed sensitive valve.

#20 Fuze

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 12:40 PM

You obviously have your homework done! I had just seen that article and though it might be of interest to ya, not saying your setup has any issues just in general.  ;)

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