BS Removal, does the oil pump need the weight of the shaft?

[emagdnim]

Well, I was thinking about the whole BS removal thing... and was thinking that the oil pump was designed with this weight of the BS in mind.

 

Are there any results here from oil pump failing after the BS was removed? I'm just looking for anyone that may have had a problem with the pump after the removal was done to there car.

 

Has anyone ever ported the relieve valve for the added oil pressure of the removal?

 

The reason I'm asking these questions is because on the DSM's you have to do some modding to the oil pump and relieve valve when removing the BS's.

 

I haven't dug into mine yet but I was wondering before I did.

 

 

I would love any professional discussion to come of this, not a **** slinging contest.

 

Thanks.

[Richie_Rich]

I didn't do any oil pump modifications when I built my engine.

I've got about 37,xxx miles on it and it's about 100+ at cold idle and about 55 fully warmed idle.

It jumps up to about 85psi at warm cruising.

I'll have to verify those numbers as I just started driving it again after the winter.

 

My friend owns an automotive machine shop and has been putting the BSE kits on Caravans for years. :character0056:

 

I'm more worried about oil draining back down from the head than anything.

I've made sure the single hole in the back does not have any obstructions.

The only other way for oil to return back down there is at the timing chain.

Under acceleration, all the oil will collect at the back of the head. :party0009:

[Chad]

No one has ever "moded" their pump after removing the shafts. I know a member that put 90K miles on a race rebuild that was beat on regularly (with a large 16G) and it didnt' have any BS shafts or pump issues.

 

Baised onteh location of the weights on th shaft, all the load/force that the BS creates is applied to the rear BS beaing, none of that force (or very little anyway) goes into the pump, so the pump does not care when the shaft it removed.

 

Do the DSM shafts have the weights close to the pump or are they centered on the block-bearing?

[Zack_Morris]

I have had my BSE done for over 2 years now and my oil pump still puts the same amount of pressure/volume as it did on it's first start up under my ownership.

I did not port the relief valve, and my reasoning was that I wanted to see what kind of pressure it would put out if I didn't. If the pressure had been too high, I would've torn it down and ported it. The only time the pressure gets above the 3/4 mark is first thing in the morning when it's cold. Other than that it's right on or right below the 3/4 mark at hwy speed. In town it's about half or just above. I've put 17K miles on mine with the BS removed and haven't seen a minutes trouble from the oil pump.

[Chad]

I'm more worried about oil draining back down from the head than anything.

I've made sure the single hole in the back does not have any obstructions.

The only other way for oil to return back down there is at the timing chain.

Under acceleration, all the oil will collect at the back of the head. :party0009:

 

There is a drain port at the back of the head, that is why one of the #4 stud is offset of the rest on the passenger side.

 

I ended up with excess oil pressure above 7000 RPM, I had to install an external oil pressure relief. My oil pump relief valve does function, but can't keep up with the volume. Drilling it to a larger hole will work, but for me the external regulator was a better choice, it's easily adjustable, and it can handle a massive volume (I'll never over-run it).

 

I was hitting 120 PSI at 8000, the external is now set to 90.

[emagdnim]

Do the DSM shafts have the weights close to the pump or are they centered on the block-bearing?

 

They are like ours but on some oil pumps the gears grind into the housing, this has been reported on several cars.... but also, with the DSM's the BSEK stubby shafts have different designs, some have slots in them, some are solid.

 

Some guys have modded them with bearings but thats pretty extensive.

 

Thats why I was wondering, I don't like being scared with my build.

[TurboRaider]

They are like ours but on some oil pumps the gears grind into the housing, this has been reported on several cars.... but also, with the DSM's the BSEK stubby shafts have different designs, some have slots in them, some are solid.

 

Some guys have modded them with bearings but thats pretty extensive.

 

Thats why I was wondering, I don't like being scared with my build.

 

I understand your concern, the oil pump drive gear is supported by the ballance shaft, when I looked at the pump I had the same question.

 

The upside is the front bearing seems to be OK all on its own. Its possible to make a rear bearing for the main drive gear that pilots on the pumps back plate but as others pointed out the pump holds up fine on its own.

 

There has been talk of running the pump slower once the BS are gone, it produces more pressure and volume than the motor needs, some sharp racers figured out a way to do it. Perhaps some parts from a forklift motor or something?

 

BTW, I run ballance shafts on my 2.6 although I cut them down in daimeter by .1". They still work well enough, my version of a compromise smooth enough with a bit less drag.

 

For anyone running ballance shafts DONT use grooved bearings! They flow way to much and cause other oiling problems when they rob oil flow to other areas of the motor.

 

I used non grooved bearing that dont have a parting line in them, I got great oil pressure and they are holding up very well.

 

Kevin C

[emagdnim]

Some guys in the DSM world use a tuned down shaft as well.

[TurboRaider]

Just for fun I measured a ballance shaft and calculated the HP required to accelerate a pair of them at 500 RPM second crank speed, 1000 RPM sec ballance shaft speed.

 

It's just tiny bit over 1 HP.

 

The moment of inertia I came up with is .0000338 Slugs FT sq. The ballance section weighs about 4 lbs ( two shafts) The diameter is about 1.75" and is about 6" long.

 

Kevin C

[Richie_Rich]

I didn't eliminate them to make HP.

I did it for reliability.

 

It seems that most spun main bearings I've seen on these engines are a result of balance shaft bearing failures.

 

I also don't like how the oil pump is driven off them.

If the chain fails, you have no oil pump.

they are also another maintenance item to make sure the tension is correct on the chain.

[Dad]

I think My pump is happier that it doesn't have that shaft hanging out of it's back side

 

Dad

[TurboRaider]

Just for fun I measured a ballance shaft and calculated the HP required to accelerate a pair of them at 500 RPM second crank speed, 1000 RPM sec ballance shaft speed.

 

It's just tiny bit over 1 HP.

 

The moment of inertia I came up with is .0000338 Slugs FT sq. The ballance section weighs about 4 lbs ( two shafts) The diameter is about 1.75" and is about 6" long.

 

Kevin C

 

I agree that they add complexity and extra things to go wrong. I have also found that if the motor had oil the ballance shaft bearings almost always look perfect.

 

If there is a problem with low oil, dirt sucking air or whatever, they are probably the first to go.

 

I'm not trying to make an argument for keeping them, we have covered that plenty of times already. What I am trying to do is do a reality check to see on HP gains.

 

At this point I think its fair to say it helps, but not the 18 HP that has been claimed. I would say total gain is at best 1.5 HP (part inertia part friction).

 

Building the best motor is all about getting a lot of small gains that added up make a large differance. Its not that differant than the knife edge crankshaft calculation I did, the number was a lot smaller than I would have hoped , but combine it with five other similar mods and you have something.

 

Kevin C

[Indiana]

2.0 G63 engines whether in Starions or whatever some will turn the shaft down to a stick to keep the pump gear squared in the pump housing and no one is concerned about the rpms that shaft is turning as they corrected the oiling problem in 2.0 blocks but never addressed it in ours. The left shaft that is driven by the smaller belt breaks or hops off and takes the timing belt with it later and its that high tention timing belt that is pulling on the pump gear and why some keep the shaft on it and turn it down its not an rpm problem, if oiling was a high rpm problem how to motorcycles and Honda S2000 motors rev high and not fail?

 

The g52b 2.0 non silent shaft motors had the same type pump without a rear bearing surface and that's the same thin gear pump the 83 starions used. You know the diesel version uses squirters and that is 83+ but a diesel and a fork lift both use a totally different pump we can not use and a forklift uses a low pressure low volume pump with one orbital gear that looks more like a knob they have a name for that pump its techoid or something like that and in 1984 they replaced forever that thin gear pump with the pump we use now so who is to say if you need to keep the lower shaft turned down to a stock to keep the gear in place.

 

If you care to know how they fixed the 2.0 oiling problem its on this page and about the gasket

 

http://www.b2600turbo.com/Oil%20Pumps.htm

 

these are the specific pages for the fixes we couldn't get because the block was cast differently

 

http://www.b2600turbo.com/TSBs/bs%20oil%20groove.jpg

 

http://www.b2600turbo.com/TSBs/20%20block%20chg.jpg

 

http://www.b2600turbo.com/TSBs/20%20oil%20pump%20chg1.jpg

 

http://www.b2600turbo.com/TSBs/20%20oil%20pump%20chg2.jpg

 

The path the oil has to take to get to the upper shaft is allot of its problem combined with the aluminum bearing surface at the front and some replacement SS bearings also give you a steel bearings for the front upper you can use if you have that aluminum front bearing holder machined out to use it.

 

The oil first comes out the oil galley, moves to the to the #1 main then through that upper #1 insert and passes through the crankshaft and goes to the #1 rod bearing, also after the oil enters the #1 main passage it runs under that upper #1 main insert to another hole leading up to the front SS bearing but in that path is also a jet in the face of the block to spray the timing chain, after what the front SS bearing doesn't use, or leak out, the rear bearing finally gets oil, its also the first to loose oil and that combined with the smaller bearing surface on the front that the 2.0 corrected when that clearance goes so does the pressure to feed the rear bearing.

 

The oil supply to the upper shaft sucks it looses pressure first and gets it back last and the front bearing surface area is too small, when the front bearing goes the shaft starts to pull down in the front then that wears the rear bearing out and then it pushes the actual bearing outward of the cavity in the block and it is destroyed and the shaft rattles and then the chain breaks.

[importwarrior]

nice FAQ or Stickie. :thumbsup:

[heefner]

I have had my BSE done for over 2 years now and my oil pump still puts the same amount of pressure/volume as it did on it's first start up under my ownership.

I did not port the relief valve, and my reasoning was that I wanted to see what kind of pressure it would put out if I didn't. If the pressure had been too high, I would've torn it down and ported it. The only time the pressure gets above the 3/4 mark is first thing in the morning when it's cold. Other than that it's right on or right below the 3/4 mark at hwy speed. In town it's about half or just above. I've put 17K miles on mine with the BS removed and haven't seen a minutes trouble from the oil pump.

 

I'm not sure but I wouldn't use the stock gauge to determine if the oil pressure is "too high". These gauges leave a little to be desired at best.

 

After removing the BS and using a mechanical oil pressure gauge, I have similar results as Rich about 90psi on cold startup it drops down to about 60psi warm idle and cruise its sits around 85psi warm, 95 - 100 psi cold at 2000 rpm. Its actually much higher than I would like but I haven't found an easy way to remedy it. I would like to route my turbo oil return into my oil pan, and work with the drainage in the head. I wish I would have done this on my last rebuild I just didn't think of it then.

[Chad]

Its actually much higher than I would like but I haven't found an easy way to remedy it.

 

You can put in an external pressure regulator for about $250 if you already have braided stainelss oil cooler lines. It still follows the stock oil presure curve up to the set point of the external regulator, it just shunts excess pressure to the pan, just like how a WG or fuel pressure regulator work.

 

I'm not saying every one should put one in, just saying if you have high baseline pressure (fresh rebuild with no BS's) you will see excess pressure above 6000 RPM. By 8000, I see about 120 PSI, I've wiped-out turbo seals that way before. I'm currently regulated to 95 PSI max.

[TurboRaider]

You can put in an external pressure regulator for about $250 if you already have braided stainelss oil cooler lines. It still follows the stock oil presure curve up to the set point of the external regulator, it just shunts excess pressure to the pan, just like how a WG or fuel pressure regulator work.

 

I'm not saying every one should put one in, just saying if you have high baseline pressure (fresh rebuild with no BS's) you will see excess pressure above 6000 RPM. By 8000, I see about 120 PSI, I've wiped-out turbo seals that way before. I'm currently regulated to 95 PSI max.

 

The relief valve in my pump from the factory is set to open at 120 PSI. Even with ballance shafts I see 90+ PSI at 5000 RPM, my wimpy truck motor does not have enough cam to rev a whole lot higher, so it not a huge issue.

 

 

 

Kevin C

[Maxzillian]

I have ported the oil relief ports on my pump just because it couldn't hurt. I elongated the holes so that the cracking point remained the same, but made the holes approximately double the size. I also added a couple of small washers to help bump the pressure just a hair. Once again, because it couldn't hurt.

 

On a below freezing day, the engine will idle 80-90 psi cold. At warm idle it'll sit around 25-30 lbs, and at anything over 3000-4000 rpm warm it has a steady 70-75 psi.

Edited March 18, 2008 by Maxzillian

[emagdnim]

I have ported the oil relief ports on my pump just because it couldn't hurt. I elongated the holes so that the cranking point remained the same, but made the holes approximately double the size. I also added a couple of small washers to help bump the pressure just a hair. Once again, because it couldn't hurt.

 

On a below freezing day, the engine will run 80-90 psi cold. At warm idle it'll sit around 25-30 lbs, and at anything over 3000-4000 rpm it has a steady 70-75 psi.

 

That sounds like the idea!