Alternator or Turn Signal Flasher?

[Starfighterpilot]

'88 Starion ESIR

 

Here's the scenario:

 

Cold start AM - start 'er up and voltage is at 13.5 V as indicated on the dash. Run her for a couple of miles in stop and go traffic and voltage drops down to between 12.5 - 13 V as indicated on the dash.

 

Check the voltage with a volt meter at the battery and the battery is at 13 volts.

 

For about the past 6 months, I have noticed that when I'm at a long stop light, making a right or left hand turn, with the head lites on, and/ or the heater/A/C fan on, the turn signals freeze after about 2 minutes and dash indicated voltage slowly drops to about 11 to 11.5 volts. This is with the engine at idle, about 900 RPM's.

 

Sometimes they freeze with nothing else on but the radio.

 

Turn off the turn signals and voltage goes up to about 12.5 V as indicated on the dash.

 

However, duplicating this in the parking lot the same thing happens ONLY:

 

1) Battery voltage stays at 13.5 V (meassured with my trusty volt meter) and doesn't twitch - however, dash voltage reads 12.3 - 12 V twitching as the turn signal flasher flashes

 

2) Turn off the head lights and/ or the heater A/C fan - voltage goes up to 12.8 - 13 V as indicated on the dash, and measured battery voltage remains at 13.5 V.

 

So this is what I have done this week end:

 

1) Disconnected ALL the plastic connectors and cleaned EVERY male and female connector in the engine house - some had a little surface corrosion but nothing that would signicantly cause the problems I'm having.

 

2) Replaced ALL of the fusible links in the engine house - they all showed 0 Ohms when tested -but I replaced them anyway. Keeping the old ones for emergency spares. I also removed and cleaned from the plastic "fuse boxes" all of the male and female clips. None were corroded. (I found the red ones Randy).

 

3) Removed and cleaned the alternator wiring harness and all of the connectors/eyes.

 

4) Removed and cleaned ALL of the engine house and the tail light circuit grounds. All of them were and are squeeky clean.

 

5) Checked all of the under the dash, fuse box fuses - all of 'em looked and tested out sat.

 

6) Removed and took the alternator to Advance Auto, just down the street from my apartment, had it tested and it tested sat. However, they did not know how to test it under a high continuous load for 2 - 5 minutes. I tried to tell 'em how but.................. :confused0024: Bunch of rookies.

 

Alternator belt was and is the correct size (3/8") and tensioned, and has belt dressing on it.

 

Anyway, I spent this whole week end doing this, it had to be done anyway for my long trip next month - BUT I'VE STILL GOT THE EXACT SAME BS GOING ON AS BEFORE!!!. :mad: :confused0024:

 

Is it the OEM turn signal flasher that's causing the problem or something that I'm missing in the turn signal electrical circuit?

 

Or, is it the alternator not putting out the required current/voltage under a long, heavy, continuous load, because of the heat generated resistance in it causing it to put out less current?

 

What 'ca think?

 

Stumped :confused0024:

 

KEN

 

Edit - Battery tested sat and has the proper amount of electrolyte in it.

Edited June 21, 2009 by Starfighterpilot

[ucw458]

The first thing I would have checked was the turn signal flasher. Try replacing that first.

 

Also check your lights. When a turn signal bulb is burnt out some vehicles freeze, some flash faster and some flash slower. My galaxie flashes extremely slow when a bulb is out. I don't remember what the quest does because I can't remember ever having a burnt out signal in that car.

[Scotty Dont]

check out jimmies post in this thread

 

http://www.starquestclub.com/forum/index.p...=relay++blinker

Edited June 1, 2009 by Scotty Dont

[StarquestRescue]

It is the flasher. A lot of these cars still have the original one. That is how they die. I learned that the hard way.

[Starfighterpilot]

The first thing I would have checked was the turn signal flasher. Try replacing that first.

 

I would have changed the flasher too, if this POS RELAY behaved like the flashers I'm used to. BUT, I DO NOT believe in just throwing parts at a problem in HOPES that the new part cures the problem. I try to eliminate everything else by trouble shooting before I buy a part, that I think MAY fix the problem. Especially considering the dash Volt Meter indicated voltage drop.

 

Besides that, she was due for her electrical circuits clean up, which I do every 3 years. And I'm going to drive her about 9,000 miles this Summer and early Fall out West so I want everthing right. :biggrinumbrella1:

 

Also check your lights. When a turn signal bulb is burnt out some vehicles freeze, some flash faster and some flash slower.

 

I think that that is self evident.

 

Thanks for the reply though.

 

KEN

Edited June 1, 2009 by Starfighterpilot

[Starfighterpilot]

check out jimmies post in this thread

 

http://www.starquestclub.com/forum/index.p...=relay++blinker

 

Scotty,

 

Thanks for that post.

 

It cleared up my question.

 

Thanks everyone for the help.

 

For What It's Worth.

 

KEN

Edited June 1, 2009 by Starfighterpilot

[pure_insanity]

ken, sorry to have missed you but as linked to jimmys post, you need a flasher unit. "triton" brand, part # EL-12 flasher unit. this will solve your problem. its about 10$ at any ol parts store on the shelf with the other electrical goodies.

[Technology]

Yes, my blinkers would go very slowly and if the revs weren't over 1000rpm, they'd just stop, but the hazard flasher worked fine and very fast. D_Venable let me use a new solid state flasher that doesn't "tick" with the light, and they are fast now, and don't stop. It's like a new car.

[TexasQuest]

Yep mine freeze sometimes too with my headlights,heater, & radio on. Probably a dying flasher.

[Scotty Dont]

D_Venable let me use a new solid state flasher that doesn't "tick" with the light, and they are fast now, and don't stop. It's like a new car.

 

Did you have to wire that relay in or did it plug right in? Mind sharing a brand/part #?

[Shelby]

nothing to do with your flasher but your alt out put is low,, you should be geting over 14 volts at the battery ,, 13.5 is indicateing an alt fault, normaly a weak diode circirt

 

 

the ign power feed wire is a bit on the small size for the car, Mike C has an FAQ on replaceing or adding an aditional power feed to help with te droping volt meter readings

[Komeuppance]

Did you have to wire that relay in or did it plug right in? Mind sharing a brand/part #?

 

Part number is EL12, you can find these in most if not all auto parts stores. Should be around $10. And it does "tick". Plugs right in, and blinks normal speed of today's cars. You will love it.

 

If you have LED's in place of your turn signals this is the replacement part you need to make them blink, the stock unit will not blink with LED's.

 

http://home.comcast.net/~DriftAbility/images/Komeuppance/CCS100/MountingLoc2.jpg

Here's a pic, it managed to sneak in on my cruise control write up, the smoke clear round thing.

 

-Robert

 

ken, sorry to have missed you but as linked to jimmys post, you need a flasher unit. "triton" brand, part # EL-12 flasher unit. this will solve your problem. its about 10$ at any ol parts store on the shelf with the other electrical goodies.

 

Ha... he already posted the info.

Edited June 1, 2009 by Komeuppance

[Hoosierquest]

I agree with shelby. I guess you dont have a spare alt lying around you can throw on? get one from the parts store and try it out, if it does not fix it you can always take it back right? But I guess a $10 flasher would be a cheap easy check too. Edited June 1, 2009 by Hoosierquest

[Starfighterpilot]

nothing to do with your flasher but your alt out put is low,, you should be geting over 14 volts at the battery ,, 13.5 is indicateing an alt fault, normaly a weak diode circirt

 

Thanks Shelby, that is what I'm thinking too. However in my past experience with alternator diodes, they do not get weak, they just fail, and you know that they failed, cuz output voltage suddenly drops below 12 V and you are sitting dead along the side of the road. So like you said, maybe one of 'em is weak - as indicated by the voltage drop at a high continuous Amp load, but it's "sort of OK" under a low load. That's what I wanted Advance Auto to check - but they didn't know how (or wouldn't) and wouldn't take advice.

 

This is why I went through the engine house's electrical circuits to eliminate a bad connection being the cause of low voltage prior to buying a new alternator/ or flasher. I don't just throw parts at a problem.

 

But I have learned over the past few years that Starquest's develop unique problems which my past muscle car experience doesn't apply to. Another example.

 

the ign power feed wire is a bit on the small size for the car, Mike C has an FAQ on replaceing or adding an aditional power feed to help with te droping volt meter readings

 

I looked for this write up but couldn't find it. Do you have a link to Mike's write up about the above?

 

It looks like it's time to swap out the alternator and the flasher and make the power feed up grade.

 

Thanks everyone for your input.

 

 

KEN

 

PS - Grant, I wish that I could have gone to Sonics and met with you guys, but I wanted to eliminate this "nagger," and I had the electrical system torn apart when Justin called. Plus I had a beer under my belt.

Edited June 1, 2009 by Starfighterpilot

[mikec]

It's not in the FAQ but I've posted it many times as replies to various charging, turn signal, and "dancing voltmeter" threads. If you SEARCH on "dancing voltmeter" you'll probably find it.

 

In a nutshell: the IGN fusible link feeds the ignition key and thus EVERYTHING that works in ACC or ON or START positions - including the alternator, turn signals, and dash voltmeter. (the hazard flashers work even with the key OFF - they have a different feed and that's why they don't make the dash voltmeter "dance.") The wiring from the link box to the ignition switch builds up a little resistance with time... so as you turn things on or off, a lot of voltage is "lost" on that wire - that's what makes the dash voltmeter "dance" in sync with the turn signals. The interior blower/fan motor also sucks from this; that's why many folks see a low voltage reading with the a/c running. Since that same signal feeds the alternator, the alternator is "denied" working voltage (for the field coil and voltage regulator) at low RPMs - when the alternator needs to work the hardest.

 

Doubling-up the wire from the fusible link box IGN output to the ignition switch input (white+black harness wire; I forget the color at the switch itself but it's the only one that's +12volt "hot" with the keys in your pocket) helps "clean up" many voltage issues.

 

mike c.

 

[Shelby]

oops my bad i thought it was put in the FAQ,, maybe it's time it was hint hint

 

american wire ga sucks you have little to choice from between 14ga and 10 ga,,some times you can luck out and find some 12ga , inport power feeds are usually inbetween our 14 _ 10ga ,, 10 is too big and 14 isn't big enought .. one tip the softer the wire the higher grade copper thats in it,, the stiffer wire has a lower grade copper core in it

[newquest86]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Mitsubishi-...%3A1|240%3A1318

 

[kingjust627]

StarFighter... what fix did you do. I just started getting this problem, and was about to swap the alternator. Was it the wiring, alternator, or wiring cleanup? Thanks brotha.

 

KJ

[Technology]

Komeuponce, The flasher relay Derek put in my car doesn't tick at all. Completely silent. There are two kinds, one that ticks and one that doesn't.

[Tim_C.]

A very common cause to slow or stalling turn signals is bad bulb grounds/socket is corroded, and bad grounds in general on the bulb harnesses.

[Starfighterpilot]

Updated 6/21/09

 

Yesterday Grant (Pure Insanity) and I went through the Charging/Ignition system and we think that we found the causes of the low voltage as indicated on the dash voltmeter and here is the stuff that we did to correct it.

 

First of all the indicated voltages that I posted in my original post are evidently wrong. My "trusty analog multimeter" is about 35 years old, and even though I "calibrate" the meter with the adjusting screw before each use, she just ain't reading right anymore. It is getting old and worn out like me.

 

Anyway, I forgot that I had bought a load tester about 10 years ago. I found it in my storage space. It's never been used. Found a lot of other tools that I forgot I had too.

 

So we hooked up the load tester to the battery, engine idling at approx 900 RPM's idle, everything in the car turned off (except for the igniton and ECI), the indicated voltage read 14.2 Volts. Dash Voltage 12.5 V.

 

Then we turned on the headlites & fog lites, and voltage momentarily dipped down to 13.8 V and went back to 14.2. Same thing with the brights. Dash Volts 12.2.

 

Left the lights on in brite mode and then turned on the AC/ heater fan. Same thing with the dip down to 13.6 but voltage went up to 14 V. Dash Volts 12.2 V.

 

With all of the above on, ran the engine until the primary fan came on - voltage dipped to 13.4 and then went back up to 14 V. Dash Volts 12V.

 

With all of the above energized, turned on the turn signals voltage dropped to 13.2 V. Dash volts dropped to about 11.8 V as the switch pulsed.

 

We couldn't run the AC cuz i'm still having electrical issues with that system.

 

Turned the engine off. Let her cool down.

 

Started the engine up, with every thing off, except the Ignition and the ECI, we slapped a 50 Amp load to the alternator with the load tester. Had a momentary drop in voltage to 13.4 but then she went back to about 13.9 V.

 

So based upon the above, we felt that the battery, alternator and it's regulator were operating correctly.

 

OK, here comes the hard stuff in 97 Degree heat in Grants garage with 3 fans blowing.

 

We removed the steering wheel, dropped the drivers side knee panel, and the steering column plastic covers. Then we removed the steering column mounting fasterners, and dropped the steering column. There is a phillips heads screw holding the ignition switch. You will need a thin ratcheting style screw driver to remove this screw.

 

We removed the ignition switch but left the key tumbler in the column. We disassembled the ignition switch. Fairly easy to do, cuz the black cap with all of the wires going to it and the contact "buttons," just pops out of the white female portion of the assembly with the copper contact bus plates, with the careful use of a small flat head screw driver. However, be VERY careful when you CAREFULLY pop or pry the black cap with the contacts off. YOU DO NOT WANT TO BREAK OR CRACK NEITHER OF THE PLASTIC SWITCH HOUSINGS. See PQ's Pictures of the switch internals and the wiring to & from the Ignition switch. http://starquest.i-x.net/viewtopic.php?t=1180&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=50 AND http://starquest.i-x.net/viewtopic.php?t=1180&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=200 My ignition switch contact buttons and raised switch buses looked worse than PQ's picture.

 

Inside of the white switch housing are 2 round copper plates with the raised switch busses on them. They are tensioned to the buttons on the black wire contact button cap with 4 teeny tiny springs under the lower copper bus plate, seated in recesses in the base of the white ignition switch housing. DO NOT LOOSE ANY OF THOSE SPRINGS!!!!

 

We found that all of the button contacts were corroded with black crud, the Di-Electric grease applied during initial assembly of the switch was crusty and hard, and the raised busses on the copper plates were HEAVILY CORRODED with black crud; plus the AM contact button (power supply to the switch) was slightly pitted, but the IG1 raised copper bus had a LARGE DEEP pit where the button would contact it in the "ON" position of the ignition switch. This isn't good!! Cuz almost all of the car was powered through this pit and corrosion. The IG2 raised bus had heavy corrosion at the "ON" postion; - this isn't good cuz the AC system and the Radiator Fans are powered through this corrosion. See FSM Page 8-46, 8-87, 8-84 & 85 for examples of what loads come off of each contact/bus.

 

You do not want pitting or corrosion at any of these points of contact because that leads to RESISTANCE and HEAT in the circuit. And with the undersized power wire feeding power to the ignition switch you are going to have less voltage and available power to power the rest of the car's electrical "stuff."

 

So, first we removed the crusty grease from the the copper bus plates using Electrical Contact Cleaner. Then, using a green Scotch Brite pad, we lightly kept burnishing the contact buttons and the raised copper plates until they were a nice squeeky clean bright copper color, while liberally spraying on Electric Contact Cleaner.

 

We liberally coated the buttons and the entire UPPER surfaces of the copper bus plates with Di-Electric Grease. Do not coat the lower surface of the lower copper plate with the grease. Cuz that grease makes keeping the 4 springs in place in their recesses during reassembly of the switch a real BEATCH!!!. We found out the hard way. More on that later.

 

It is fairly self evident the way the switch internals are reassembled. There is a tang on each of the plates which fits into a fitted recess in the white female part of the switch. Just remember, in what order you took them out and have all of the 4 springs in their recesses as you fit the lower copper bus plate on top of them and DO NOT allow them to become unseated.

 

Insert the switch assembly back in the keyed tumbler assembly and screw in the phillips head screw.

 

Then go to the ignition switch's "ON" position and verify that everything in the car is powered. Especially that the the AC Control Panel lights up. If something doesn't work then one or more of the 4 springs got out of it's recesses during the switches reassembly, and you have to go back and disassemble the switch and THIS TIME make sure that ALL the springs are seated properly.

 

The spring under the IG2 raised bus wasn't in it's seat when we initially re-assembled the switch, consequently we did not have power to the AC Control Panel. So looking at the Electrical schematics in all of section 8 of the FSM we found out that the only other major components powered from this contact was the radiator fans circuit. So we started up the engine and brought up engine temp until the Primary radiator fan should have kicked on but it didn't. So we removed and disassembled the switch and sure enough that spring was just laying in the bottom of the white switch housing. Re-aasembled the switch assembly this time and everthing worked.

 

After that "adventure", we started checking what indicated dash voltage was doing under various loads. It was a LOT BETTER. I forget the exact values but it was on the average 1/2 Volt less than what was read at the battery. See the as found Dash voltage readings posted above for the differences in voltage, before cleaning the switch.

 

But, I want as much power to the ignition switch as I can possibly get SSSSSSOOOOO, here is what else we did.

 

We did Mikec's suggestion of running another wire to the ignition switch. Using a 13 foot section of 10 AWG gauge wire I tapped off of the positive battery pole with a connector and then installed a NEW Red fusible link in the line using spade connectors. Be sure to tightly wrap the spade connectors with that good electrical tape (I forgot it's name) to preclude any shorting of the exposed portion of the male spades - cuz they won't fit all of the way inside of the female connector portion of the fusible link.

 

Then I ran the wire down the frame rail, zip tying it to the existing harnesses, under the HP gas filter and up and through the rubber firewall grommet that the acelerator and cruise control cables go through.

 

We cut the new ignion feed wire about even with connector B- 48 and added a male/female set of connectors. Then we carefully cut about 1/2 inches of insulation from the black wire going to the AM (Power Supply from battery) buttom of the ignition switch. This AM wire, for some reason, is black between the main ignition switch and the first upstream connector (B-48). Between the Fusible Link Box #2 and this B-48 connector this power wire is white with a black tracer.

 

Then we tightly wrapped the new wire around the black one and soldered them together. Then we wrapped this joint with that good electricians tape. We also zip tied the new wire to the existing black wire using 4 zip ties about 6 inches down the existing black wire. Keeps from putting any tension on this soldered joint.

 

Reassembled the ignition switch and started her up. We saw very little change in the indicated voltage from when we cleaned the igniton switch contacts. But, I know that the ignition NOW has as much power as it needs and it is feeding every volt that it's capable of to all of the electrical stuff in the car.

 

I believe that the dash volt meter is probably slightly out of calibration. After all it's been used for 21 years and 300K miles.

 

Weather permitting, later on in the week, I'm going to remove the dash hood and try to check the voltage at the volt meter using a new multimeter, and see if in fact it is out of calibration as various loads are applied.

 

Another thing that amazed Grant and I was the small size of all of the contact buttons and the raised busses for the amount of current that goes through them.

 

So it appears to me, I may be wrong, that in addition to running another power wire to the ignition switch you also have to clean and relube the ignition switch to get all of the available power to each of the car's "electrical stuff."

 

For What It's Worth.

 

KEN

 

PS Tomorrow the AC gets fixed.

Edited August 6, 2010 by Starfighterpilot