Calling Shelby, Indiana, Phinko, Scott87Star...All the big guns...HELP!

[polarisman14]

If any of you have been following my build (or several threads concerning it) you know I'm having a hell of a time getting spark. I don't really know if this is a MegaSquirt-related problem or if it involves the factory ECU so if at all possible I would appreciate it being left in VM to get some more exposure.

 

Initially I was running the stock distributor pickup and ignitor and the car was running TBI. I first switched over to MegaSquirt with the stock dizzy/pickup and ignitor and the car had spark. For whatever reason the signal was not getting to the MS ECU so it would only start for a second or so because of the fuel injected during the prime pulse.

 

Then, in the interest of possibly killing two birds with one stone, I swapped over to a CR125 Caravan distributor pickup and had the stock ignitor modified to control spark along with having the MS wiring, programming, and MS unit itself modified accordingly. I also had the dizzy locked and the vacuum advance removed and sealed. This was to allow ignition control through MS which would allow me to retard timing more than 7 degrees (the max allowed by the stock dizzy/ignitor setup). I was also hoping that by switching to the CR125 pickup it would eliminate the signal issues I was having.

 

I sent Scott my dizzy, MS ECU, and wiring harness and he used a known good ignitor to modify as a core exchange. Everything checked out properly on his MS Stimulator and he even went so far as to check the V+, GND, and IGN signal wires on a car and verified it picked up an RPM signal in TunerStudio, which it did.

 

Now, in my car, I have no ignition signal, and because of the way the CR125 module and MS work together, no spark whatsoever. I'm hoping that a couple hundred heads are better than two and we can all brainstorm to get this thing running.

 

I used a voltmeter to check engine/body/battery ground continuity, resistance (everything is connected properly and shows no resistance) along with checking voltage at various points versus across the battery terminals (kinda a secondary test to verify the resistance results).

 

Please help me before I push this 99% completed install off a cliff.

 

Let me know what things I should check for.

 

This may or may not be related, but my automatic seat belts, power door locks, and interior lights don't work. The power windows do along with the exterior lights (but the fogs don't). It's been an electrical nightmare working on this car because the previous owner hacked everything apart and I'm trying my best to fix it, just feeling a little overwhelmed right now and would like to get the car running.

[NotStock88]

Was hooking up the tach adapter according to diagram unsuccessful? I guess I am not a "big gun" LOL

[Komeuppance]

What was NotStock88 saying about an MSD tach adapter... LOL...

 

-Robert

[NotStock88]

from my experience you need to have everything shown here, hooked up just like it is shown.

 

http://i761.photobucket.com/albums/xx254/notstock88/ECUInstall1.jpg

 

Thanks Phinko! He is the one who created this drawing

Edited August 19, 2011 by NotStock88

[polarisman14]

I know, the thing is I have an ignition signal voltage that's between 0-5v (1.4 key on, 1.65 key cranking). The issue is that it isn't oscillating AKA switching ground so it isn't giving a clean signal. I'm just trying to find other things to look at because Scott said the tach adapter shouldn't be necessary if everything else is working correctly in my setup. I know that's an option and plan on trying it if I don't get anywhere with the other responses in this thread.

 

PS: Anyone who can read this thread and give an intelligent response is a bug gun...Those are just the guys who usually have the answers to this stuff IMO.

Edited August 19, 2011 by polarisman14

[scott87star]

Tach adapter should be a non issue, I had the ecu, wire harness, modded ignitor and dizzy all connected on my bench and spinning the dizzy by hand gave a nice clean rpm signal. Your situation was a little different Eric, your car if I remember actually ran at idle but went a bit crazy when you brought the rpm's up like Paul's car. Rewiring it with the tach adapter fixed it. Here as I said above it all worked together on the bench but when he installed it he gets nothing.

 

Prior to the switch to the CR 125 he was running the megasquirt as fuel only with the stock ignitor/dizzy/ignition pickup and he wasn't getting any rpm signal. He sent me the ecu and I found diode D2 was installed backwards (took a picture) so no ignition signal could get through. I reversed that, tested it on the bench (good) and actually hooked the ignition in wire up to the negative side of the coil on my flatty. With power to the ecu it saw the rpm in perfectly, tracking the throttle movements. I sent that back to him and he reinstalled and still had no rpm signal. That is when he sent me the ecu, wire harness and dizzy for testing. Somehow I have to believe that it should have worked then in fuel only mode since it worked here on the bench and on my car, but it didn't. Now we have the same issue, no rpm signal, from a different source (dizzy instead of neg coil) but through the same input wire which I found to be fine. A real head scratcher we got here.

 

Scott

[slowquest]

EDIT: nevermind, just reread and saw you don't have spark

 

Do you have spark?

Edited August 19, 2011 by slowquest

[scott87star]

The only other thing that seems logical is the CR125 took a crap somehow and he needs to replace it. All of the CR125's I've tested that are not genuine Mistubishi parts put out a very weak 0.65 V square wave signal. Matt's only put out 0.35 V, it is possible it was dying. The genuine Mistubishi modules put out a 5 V square wave.

 

Scott

[polarisman14]

Yeah I was leaning toward it being something relating to the wiring in my specific car (not 89 starions, literally specifically my car). I know that Scott did his part to ensure everything was working on his end and I swear I'm not retarded and am not hooking it up incorrectly. I'm going to go through the wiring harness and recheck it this weekend to verify it is all connected correctly...But the only thing that could have really changed between him and I is the spade connectors on the relays since a couple fell off during shipping...

 

I'm thinking it may have something to do with the wiring leading to or from the ignitor or something...

 

EDIT: And yes I'm positive I have voltage at the coil (small joke ). 12.52v when the key is in the on position which is the same voltage the battery terminals measure across.

Edited August 19, 2011 by polarisman14

[Funky Phil]

Tach adapter should be a non issue, I had the ecu, wire harness, modded ignitor and dizzy all connected on my bench and spinning the dizzy by hand gave a nice clean rpm signal. Your situation was a little different Eric, your car if I remember actually ran at idle but went a bit crazy when you brought the rpm's up like Paul's car. Rewiring it with the tach adapter fixed it. Here as I said above it all worked together on the bench but when he installed it he gets nothing.

 

You can add mine to that list aswell.

 

 

Polaris,

Can you do a crappy drawing as to how your ignition circuit is ran? Kinda like the one that Eric posted.

 

Eric,

Dont worry buddy. People will think your a big dog in the near future....

[polarisman14]

To be honest I don't know how it all jives together. Scott does. lol.

 

I just know that I'm running the stock dizzy w/vac advance removed and rotor locked, MS to control ignition timing, and the stock ignitor that has been modified to pass the signal.

 

The wires that connect the MS to the ignitor are the yel/blk and blu/red ones on the main harness where it connects to the ignitor. I believe the yel/blk is the signal wire from the main harness which is connected to the shielded signal wire going to pin 37 on the MS and the blu/red one is going to the pin on MS that controls switching for the ignitor?

 

This is the problem with me having limited knowledge of MS...I don't know. I'm trying, but I don't know.

Edited August 19, 2011 by polarisman14

[Indiana]

Where do you have the power and ignition wires to MS connected? Are you using the control relay?

[Shelby]

why is the oem ecu even mention'd ??

 

with the caravan igniter NO tach adaptor is need'd for MS , and you only need ONE igniter

looks like you start'd out with a working system sept for the ecu turning on the fuel pump relay

 

if you useing MS to control timeing you need to do a couple things,, first the TDC point is advance'd 70-90 degrees BTDC , the mechanical advance system must be loc'd , this means the dist will not be set in the oreg position and the timeing has to be retard's back to 10btdc in the software , and the actual timing in soft ware and real world must match

 

the dist rotor moves 180 crank shaft degrees from one cyl to the next cyl fireing

 

this goes a lot easier if you start with fuel only and use the stock dist for timeing untill you get your fuel map up and runing ,then do the MS timeing control conversion

[Shelby]

The only other thing that seems logical is the CR125 took a crap somehow and he needs to replace it. All of the CR125's I've tested that are not genuine Mistubishi parts put out a very weak 0.65 V square wave signal. Matt's only put out 0.35 V, it is possible it was dying. The genuine Mistubishi modules put out a 5 V square wave.

 

Scott

 

 

i use'd a real factory caravan igniter as well , these after market units are like the old ford fender moduals,, made with less transtors and inferior parts

[Shelby]

To be honest I don't know how it all jives together. Scott does. lol.

 

I just know that I'm running the stock dizzy w/vac advance removed and rotor locked, MS to control ignition timing, and the stock ignitor that has been modified to pass the signal.

 

The wires that connect the MS to the ignitor are the yel/blk and blu/red ones on the main harness where it connects to the ignitor. I believe the yel/blk is the signal wire from the main harness which is connected to the shielded signal wire going to pin 37 on the MS and the blu/red one is going to the pin on MS that controls switching for the ignitor?

 

This is the problem with me having limited knowledge of MS...I don't know. I'm trying, but I don't know.

 

you have no need of the stock igniter (knock box) the caravan igniter is a complete igniter with in it's self , the oem knock box got it's power from the oem ecu not the ign system

 

useing the caravan igniter all you need'd was the tech signal off the neg side of the coil to the MS ecu but it's greatly simplifys things if you use the caravan pig tail wireing for the dist useing the oem dist harness can cause problems with the ground shield shorting out the ign signal

[Starwolf]

Not much of any help but I too had to use a tach adapter

[polarisman14]

I am not using the relay board. I'm not powering the fuel pump with MS, that and the ignitor/knock box are the only things connected to the factory ECU IIRC.

 

I have the +12v for the main relay going to the positive on the battery, and the +12v switched going to the + side of the igntion coil (temporary). The ignition signal for MS comes from the dizzy pickup (yellow/black wire) and goes through the ignitor and into a weatherpak connector where the shielded signal wire goes to the MS.

 

So Shelby, you're saying if I am using the cr125 pickup I can use the caravan ignitor as well and be totally stand-alone from the factory ECU (besides the ECU turning on the fuel pump)? Specifically what year and model caravan does the ignitor and wiring pigtail need to come from? Got a part number or link?

 

The second part of your statement is the interesting part--Saying that the OEM Dist harness can cause problems with the shield shorting out the ign signal...I wonder if that's what is happening in my case?

 

When you say using the caravan pig tail wiring for the dist do you mean the dizzy pickup-to-main harness-pigtail? With spade terminals on one side and the 3pos connector on the other?

 

And StarWolf, are you running FIP computer or MS computer? Did you install the pullup resistor as well as using the tach adapter or just the adapter? Scott installed a pullup resistor to pull the voltage up from the .35V it was at to a voltage that MS could recognize--doing that is a majority of what the tach adapter does which is why we were thinking there was a separate issue.

Edited August 19, 2011 by polarisman14

[Indiana]

I'm not powering the fuel pump with MS, that and the ignitor/knock box are the only things connected to the factory ECU IIRC.

The ECU must have the tach signal from the - coil terminal or after the ignition key moves from "start" to "run" the fuel pump portion of the control relay shuts down. If you have that going to MS you'll need to send it to the stock ECU too, OR take the fuel pump relay wire from MS and cut the white wire with the red stripe at the conrol relay and connect it to MS. You say it starts then dies so it has spark and fuel for the prime pulse but afterward dies. It sounds like its because you still have the stock ECU controlling the fuel pump relay inside the control relay and there's no ignition (tach) signal to it so the fuel pump shuts down after you release the ignition key from the "start" position.

[polarisman14]

Although I don't doubt your theory, the car USED to start for a few seconds then die out when it was running fuel only control. At that time the tach on the dash of the car also worked but there was still no RPM being registered in TunerStudio and therefore nothing to continue driving the injectors past the prime pulse. The car had spark.

 

The ignition signal is also being controlled by MS now. At this point the car does not start whatsoever, has no spark, no RPM signal, no tachometer movement in TS, and the only time the tachometer on the dash does anything is when the key is first switched into the on position. It jostles a bit. No movement when cranking so that tells me the in-car tach has no tach signal either. I believe the reason why the OEM ignitor is still part of the system is to be able to tell the fuel pump to keep running, no? I have a fuel pressure gauge and it reads a steady 42psi when cranking.

[Indiana]

The ignition switch powers the control relay and when the switch is in the cranking position it causes the pump relay to close and after the ECU gets a tach signal from the - coil post (nothing at all to do with the dash board tach you don't even need it and it runs off another wire, its from the little metal thing with the black and white wires from it ) and as you are starting the car the tach signal begins and the ECU also holds the pump relay closed and when the ket moves from start to run the pump relay stays closed.

[Indiana]

It ran briefly before likely beacuse there was way too much fuel being dispensed while cranking and that can make an engine run for a few seconds so you know the ignition system was working at that point otherwise it wouldn't have ran at all.

[Shelby]

man you got a mess ,, completely remove the oem knock box and the oem ecu from the system,,none of it is need'd

you use the oem main relay to provide power to every thing includeing the fuel pump inja, the ecy and heat'd 02 , you can use MS to turn on the fuel pump or use a roll over swt and a direct ground , the seting to turn on fuel pump relay is internal to the soft ware and must be set to min rpms for pump run, no rpm signal and no pump run

 

no part of the knock box is need''d to run the ms,, the caravan igniter is a full 12 volt ign modual , it has 2 wires one goes to the coil posi terminal to provide power to the modual the other wire is the coil neg trigger wire,, and it goes directly to the coil neg terminal,, the same terminal provides the tach signal for the MS ecu,, NOTHING else is need'd to make spark

 

this so call'd 5 volt signal is internal to the igniter and pick up , the signal at the coil neg is a swt'd 12 volt

 

you can not wire up the stock knock box and part of the oem ecu,, and you do not need any tach adaptor nor can you use more then one igniter and thats what your trying to do

[Caliber308]

Let me ask this question. When you crank your engine do you see the needle on the Tach. Gauge bounce?

And no, I don't consider myself a BIG GUN But I have some.

Bill

Edited August 20, 2011 by Caliber308

[polarisman14]

Nope, no gauge bounce.

 

I'm gonna wait for Scott to put his $.02 before I go any further with this but the caravan ignitor and pigtail sounds like a very attractive option at this point.

 

Shelby, what year ignitor and pigtail would I need to do that?

[Starwolf]

I didnt read your whole setup but I do know on a stock car if the tach doesnt bounce when cranking car over then the knock box is dead.

 

Probably isnt that but i figure thats what cal was getting at.