chiplee Posted July 4, 2010 Report Share Posted July 4, 2010 Last time it started getting noisy a new fuel filter fixed it. This time it didn't work. Any other ideas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euphoria Posted July 4, 2010 Report Share Posted July 4, 2010 is it a 255 or factory? either way fuel pumps only whine when they are starting to go bad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiplee Posted July 4, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2010 is it a 255 or factory? either way fuel pumps only whine when they are starting to go bad It's a walbro. I've had two and they've both whined off and on right after I installed them. I'm on summit right now ordering an Aeromotive Tsunami and good filters. Tired of messing with these walbro things anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euphoria Posted July 4, 2010 Report Share Posted July 4, 2010 i don't know if it's the same with the quest's as it is with the dsm's but my 2g gsx had a 255 intank and it whined until i bought a rewire kit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shelby Posted July 4, 2010 Report Share Posted July 4, 2010 Chip is the noise steady or changes as it warms up,, most times noise is cause'd by fuel restriction TO the pump not it being under load , as far as wireing goes,, the only weak link i see is the oem ground wire, it should be the same size as the power feed wire but it's much smaller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Posted July 4, 2010 Report Share Posted July 4, 2010 I had a Tahoe that went though 2 pumps in 3 years. Not sure why the OEM went out, but the aftermarket replecement went out soon after it was put in and I think it was the pickup filter coupled with the goor quality gas I get here. It was always noisey. The 2nd replacement I was got all new filters again and it was quiet, but after a few thousand miles it became noisey again. Turns out the fuel lines were rubbign the unibody intermitantly, causing normal pump noise to be far more audiable. I made some adjustments to the fuel lines at the tank and the noise was never heard again. Also, that pump make a lot more noise when it was low on fuel (under 1/8 tank). Pumps use the fuel as their coolant, run it real low in a hot environment and they will overheat. The gage in the tahoe was not reliable (stalled/ran out of gas with 1/8 tank displayed) so I used pump noise as my "low fuel" light. It's normal to keep a small amount of fuel in a car that is rarely driven, but it can be hard on the pump if it's made to work hard on that low amount of fuel. I run a huge tail pump (rated for 3x's a walbro) and it's very noisey, and it's sound is direcetly related to fuel pressure, I can use that noise as my fuel pressure gage to an extent. If you run high baseline, you will hear it more. I run really big injectors and low baseline. I used this same pump on a high $$ build for a customer, he was not at all happy with the noise and wanted the flow capacity, so I came up with a surge tank setup, using a smaller feeder pump to feed a surge tank that the larger pump drew from. The larger pump had an inlet pressure of about 10 PSI at all times, and it way WAY more quiet. Instead of drawing fuel in by suction, it was being forced in. The setup didnt draw any more current, was 1/3 the noise, and had the added benifit of the ~1 liter of of surge fuel (good idea on cars pushed to high G's). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiplee Posted July 4, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2010 Chip is the noise steady or changes as it warms up,, most times noise is cause'd by fuel restriction TO the pump not it being under load , as far as wireing goes,, the only weak link i see is the oem ground wire, it should be the same size as the power feed wire but it's much smaller It changes as it warms up and changes with engine speed. It's an interesting point you make about the ground. I had wired a new ground to it but when I first got back there to troubleshoot last night the wire end was so close to being broken that it broke when I pulled the pump out of its mount to look at it. I rewired it, but I connected it back to the factory ground. I'll wire back to my previous better ground and see if it helps at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiplee Posted July 4, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2010 (edited) I had a Tahoe that went though 2 pumps in 3 years. Not sure why the OEM went out, but the aftermarket replecement went out soon after it was put in and I think it was the pickup filter coupled with the goor quality gas I get here. It was always noisey. The 2nd replacement I was got all new filters again and it was quiet, but after a few thousand miles it became noisey again. Turns out the fuel lines were rubbign the unibody intermitantly, causing normal pump noise to be far more audiable. I made some adjustments to the fuel lines at the tank and the noise was never heard again. Also, that pump make a lot more noise when it was low on fuel (under 1/8 tank). Pumps use the fuel as their coolant, run it real low in a hot environment and they will overheat. The gage in the tahoe was not reliable (stalled/ran out of gas with 1/8 tank displayed) so I used pump noise as my "low fuel" light. It's normal to keep a small amount of fuel in a car that is rarely driven, but it can be hard on the pump if it's made to work hard on that low amount of fuel. I run a huge tail pump (rated for 3x's a walbro) and it's very noisey, and it's sound is direcetly related to fuel pressure, I can use that noise as my fuel pressure gage to an extent. If you run high baseline, you will hear it more. I run really big injectors and low baseline. I used this same pump on a high $$ build for a customer, he was not at all happy with the noise and wanted the flow capacity, so I came up with a surge tank setup, using a smaller feeder pump to feed a surge tank that the larger pump drew from. The larger pump had an inlet pressure of about 10 PSI at all times, and it way WAY more quiet. Instead of drawing fuel in by suction, it was being forced in. The setup didnt draw any more current, was 1/3 the noise, and had the added benifit of the ~1 liter of of surge fuel (good idea on cars pushed to high G's). Thanks for the info, Chad. I getting the aeromotive pump that says it supports 700hp NA and 500HP FI. I'll use a 100 micron filter before the pump, and a 10 micron filter after it. What I'm not sure about is the pickup size. It's 1/2 inch if I recall correctly, or basically -8 AN, same as the pump inlet, but it seems like this area is a big part of my problem. With anything less than 1/2 a tank of fuel, if I try to get on the gas coming out of a sharp turn I get a heavy fuel starved hesitation. Seems obvious that gas is sloshing to one side of the tank away from the pickup tube. I've been looking into sumps and fuel cells because I really want the pickup at the bottom rear of the tank. Any idea what our pickup design can handle? Lateral Gs side to side and fore and aft is what I'm talking about. I live in a very hot environment and I have 100 octane unleaded in the car right now. I think without foam I could be running into aeration problems and all sorts of nasty stuff. Have my eye on a 16 gallon foam lined cell. Any feedback you have on getting that into the factory location would be great. Edited July 4, 2010 by chiplee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Posted July 4, 2010 Report Share Posted July 4, 2010 Have my eye on a 16 gallon foam lined cell. Any feedback you have on getting that into the factory location would be great. Kablam : http://webpages.charter.net/catsamuel/DCP00784.JPG http://webpages.charter.net/catsamuel/DCP00790.JPG It's a big project, but it can and will fit. That is a 16 gallon foam filled summit tank. I have a universal fuel level pickup going in soon. The stock tank has very little in the way of internal baffles, and the cup that the pickup resides in is very small so it's easy to suck dry. It's a lot like the oil pan setup. The stock setup dumps the FPR fuel into the cup so it should be fine most of the time, but if you empty it via a sudden surge of demand, or heavy G's, it won't refill fast enough. A surge tank is probalby a more cost effective solution to your situation. Mine has the 2 ports, one feeds the pump and the other is the return from the FPR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiplee Posted July 4, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2010 Kablam : http://webpages.charter.net/catsamuel/DCP00784.JPG http://webpages.charter.net/catsamuel/DCP00790.JPG It's a big project, but it can and will fit. That is a 16 gallon foam filled summit tank. I have a universal fuel level pickup going in soon. The stock tank has very little in the way of internal baffles, and the cup that the pickup resides in is very small so it's easy to suck dry. It's a lot like the oil pan setup. The stock setup dumps the FPR fuel into the cup so it should be fine most of the time, but if you empty it via a sudden surge of demand, or heavy G's, it won't refill fast enough. A surge tank is probalby a more cost effective solution to your situation. Mine has the 2 ports, one feeds the pump and the other is the return from the FPR. Yeah, so uh, I'll drop it off next weekend then and you can just let me know when it's ready to pick up. Thanks ;^) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Posted July 4, 2010 Report Share Posted July 4, 2010 One thing I don't like is having to fill it by popping the hatch, and here in Oregon you can't pump your own fuel (state law) so I generlay get some gas cans filled and bring them home to fill it up myself. Some day I'll make a fill tube that comes out behind the license plate. Seriouslty though, surge tank will address your situaiton just fine. Figure on atleast 2 liters of capacity in the surge tank for true piece of mind. You just get a low pressure pump to fill the surge tank, one of those intended for V-8 carb motors, these are good because they are high flow low pressure. There is room between the tank and the differential for the whole setup So it goes stock tank pickup > Surge tank pump > surge tank > primary pump > fuel rail > FPR > surge tank > stock tank return. The surge pump enters the side of the tank. The tank is oriented upright. The primarly pump draws from the bottom of the surge tank, The FPR teturns to the bottom or side of the surge tank (depending on packaging restraints), and you put a small line (-4 or -6) at the top of the surge tank to the stock tank return. You either use a small port for the tank return, or if you have the $$, put in a N/A carb FPR and regulate surge tank pressure to 5-10 PSI. this way the primary pump is always drawing fuel from a large colum of pressurized fuel. Even during a total fuel starvation event (on the surge pump), the primary pump draws off that 2 liters of stored fuel, it may not be under pressure, but it's still there for the taking. gravity keeps the air out of the primalry pump because the return to the tank is at the top of the surge tank and there is always flow in a EFI fuel system. If you already have the primary tank, it's only a few hundered $$ to build the rest of the system. I'm supprised so few use this method, it's sommon in true race setups that see high G-forces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiplee Posted July 4, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2010 (edited) One thing I don't like is having to fill it by popping the hatch, and here in Oregon you can't pump your own fuel (state law) so I generlay get some gas cans filled and bring them home to fill it up myself. Some day I'll make a fill tube that comes out behind the license plate. Seriouslty though, surge tank will address your situaiton just fine. Figure on atleast 2 liters of capacity in the surge tank for true piece of mind. You just get a low pressure pump to fill the surge tank, one of those intended for V-8 carb motors, these are good because they are high flow low pressure. There is room between the tank and the differential for the whole setup So it goes stock tank pickup > Surge tank pump > surge tank > primary pump > fuel rail > FPR > surge tank > stock tank return. The surge pump enters the side of the tank. The tank is oriented upright. The primarly pump draws from the bottom of the surge tank, The FPR teturns to the bottom or side of the surge tank (depending on packaging restraints), and you put a small line (-4 or -6) at the top of the surge tank to the stock tank return. You either use a small port for the tank return, or if you have the $$, put in a N/A carb FPR and regulate surge tank pressure to 5-10 PSI. this way the primary pump is always drawing fuel from a large colum of pressurized fuel. Even during a total fuel starvation event (on the surge pump), the primary pump draws off that 2 liters of stored fuel, it may not be under pressure, but it's still there for the taking. gravity keeps the air out of the primalry pump because the return to the tank is at the top of the surge tank and there is always flow in a EFI fuel system. If you already have the primary tank, it's only a few hundered $$ to build the rest of the system. I'm supprised so few use this method, it's sommon in true race setups that see high G-forces. I'm not finding anything called a surge tank for fuel on summit or jeggs. Edit: nevermind, I'm finding them. Seems pretty straight forward. Edited July 4, 2010 by chiplee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiplee Posted July 4, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2010 One thing I don't like is having to fill it by popping the hatch, and here in Oregon you can't pump your own fuel (state law) so I generlay get some gas cans filled and bring them home to fill it up myself. Some day I'll make a fill tube that comes out behind the license plate. Seriouslty though, surge tank will address your situaiton just fine. Figure on atleast 2 liters of capacity in the surge tank for true piece of mind. You just get a low pressure pump to fill the surge tank, one of those intended for V-8 carb motors, these are good because they are high flow low pressure. There is room between the tank and the differential for the whole setup So it goes stock tank pickup > Surge tank pump > surge tank > primary pump > fuel rail > FPR > surge tank > stock tank return. The surge pump enters the side of the tank. The tank is oriented upright. The primarly pump draws from the bottom of the surge tank, The FPR teturns to the bottom or side of the surge tank (depending on packaging restraints), and you put a small line (-4 or -6) at the top of the surge tank to the stock tank return. You either use a small port for the tank return, or if you have the $$, put in a N/A carb FPR and regulate surge tank pressure to 5-10 PSI. this way the primary pump is always drawing fuel from a large colum of pressurized fuel. Even during a total fuel starvation event (on the surge pump), the primary pump draws off that 2 liters of stored fuel, it may not be under pressure, but it's still there for the taking. gravity keeps the air out of the primalry pump because the return to the tank is at the top of the surge tank and there is always flow in a EFI fuel system. If you already have the primary tank, it's only a few hundered $$ to build the rest of the system. I'm supprised so few use this method, it's sommon in true race setups that see high G-forces. So, could you fill the surge tank with a stock fuel pump? Or do you have to get a carbed pump for some reason? Does that have to be a low pressure environment inside the surge tank? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Posted July 4, 2010 Report Share Posted July 4, 2010 So, could you fill the surge tank with a stock fuel pump? Or do you have to get a carbed pump for some reason? Does that have to be a low pressure environment inside the surge tank? The stock pump would work, but flow is more important than pressure. A low pressure high flow pump is going to be more efficent, last longer, and run quieter when used in this capacity. I'd suggest a carb pump because it was designed for the lower pressures, an EFI pump will work though. You want high flow so it can refill itself quickly in a starvation event. If you've ever run an EIF pump into a bucket (no load) it actually flows very little, it's just able to flow that at high pressures. I made my own surge tank, it's just a cylinder with 2 ends welded on, and threaded bosses and mounting brackets. the surge tank doesn't need to be under a lot of pressure, or any pressure really. The more pressure it has, the less work the primary pump does and the quieter it will be, you want both pumps to be "happy". If you want to persue this, I'd suggest new wiring to a good source. You can use the stock pump wiring to tirgger a relay at the pump itself. I run 10 gage wire, but my pump can draw over 20 amps too. Browning out a pump motor on a setup that uses a pressure regulator is bad for it and will shorten the pumps life a great deal. Stock is 14 gage, that's good for about 12 amps continious. A conductors capacity to carry current with a stacic source/load is non-linear. I say run the biggest wire you can within reason, just don't over-fuse it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiplee Posted July 4, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2010 (edited) seems like this would do for the tank. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Aluminum-Fuel-Surge-Tank-RX7-S13-Civic-Mustang-Eclipse-/120549918745?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item1c1155c819 Having trouble picking out a low pressure fuel pump though. Any ideas? Edited July 4, 2010 by chiplee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Posted July 4, 2010 Report Share Posted July 4, 2010 Yah, that should do nicely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiplee Posted July 4, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2010 Yah, that should do nicely. Ok, cool, and I found a deal on a 140gph pump with a 14psi max. Includes a regulator and gauge. My fuel pump is already wired in with a relay from when I did the MPI install, so I should be good there. Seems like with fittings and everything I should be able to do the job for about $600, and that includes the $300 aeromotive pump. As long as I never feel a fuel starved hesitation again I don't care if it costs $1k. I just know the thing is sucking air from time to time, and this is long overdue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiplee Posted July 5, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 5, 2010 Ok, cool, and I found a deal on a 140gph pump with a 14psi max. Includes a regulator and gauge. My fuel pump is already wired in with a relay from when I did the MPI install, so I should be good there. Seems like with fittings and everything I should be able to do the job for about $600, and that includes the $300 aeromotive pump. As long as I never feel a fuel starved hesitation again I don't care if it costs $1k. I just know the thing is sucking air from time to time, and this is long overdue. Actually, I just did some research on that pump and they're apparently chinese junk. What flow rate would I need for the low pressure pump? I want to get a holley or edelbrock or something, but the 140gph pumps in those brands are pricey. If a 97gph or even 71gph pump would work then I can grab one of those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Posted July 5, 2010 Report Share Posted July 5, 2010 http://www.sx-performance.com/Fuel_Pumps.htm I've had the 18203 for 9 or 10 years now. They have a low pressure unit : 18205. 100% made in the US, and SX is used by a lot of race teams so they aren't some new unknown brand. I've had good luck with aeromotive, but don't know a lot about their low pressure pumps. When I put in my surge tank I'll be adding the 18205 to feed the 18203 I already have. I'm not having supply problems, but I would like to quiet down the primary pump, and have some more piece of mind in hard corners. I tend not to keep much fuel in the tank so it doesnt' spoil on me (infrequent use). I'd say as long as the surge pump flows as much at "free flow" as the primary does at "full pressure", you'll be good to go, neither pump will be working harder than the other. Just be warned, those big pumps are noisey, you'll have to accept some of that if you want to be in that power range and have the reliability they offer. It's a trade-off. For my friends car, I used an aeromotive 11101 for the primary and an aermotive 11203 for the surge pump. Aeromotive is made in the US as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiplee Posted July 5, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 5, 2010 http://www.sx-performance.com/Fuel_Pumps.htm I've had the 18203 for 9 or 10 years now. They have a low pressure unit : 18205. 100% made in the US, and SX is used by a lot of race teams so they aren't some new unknown brand. I've had good luck with aeromotive, but don't know a lot about their low pressure pumps. When I put in my surge tank I'll be adding the 18205 to feed the 18203 I already have. I'm not having supply problems, but I would like to quiet down the primary pump, and have some more piece of mind in hard corners. I tend not to keep much fuel in the tank so it doesnt' spoil on me (infrequent use). I'd say as long as the surge pump flows as much at "free flow" as the primary does at "full pressure", you'll be good to go, neither pump will be working harder than the other. Just be warned, those big pumps are noisey, you'll have to accept some of that if you want to be in that power range and have the reliability they offer. It's a trade-off. For my friends car, I used an aeromotive 11101 for the primary and an aermotive 11203 for the surge pump. Aeromotive is made in the US as well. Well then it doesn't seem like I need much of a lift pump to fill the surge tank. The aeromotive pump I got says it flows 450 lbs/hr, which (check my math) comes out to just 56 gallons per hour. A 72 gal/hr carter should do the job just fine. This will probably make the big aeromotive pump unnecessary actually. The walbro as a main pump pulling from a pressurized source would probably be quiet and never fall short of demand. Now that I understand the idea Chad I'm also wondering why more guys aren't using this kind of setup, especially the guys that autocross. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Posted July 5, 2010 Report Share Posted July 5, 2010 gas is ~6.2 pounds per gallon (according to google search), so 450 #/hr would be 72 gallons per hour, is that rating you use at full pressure? The stock pump something like 25 Gal/hr at pressure. My pump has a flow chart and voltage chart (on their website) so you really can cross refrence them if you want to be sure. Mine is 80 Gal/hr at 45 PSI, and 120 at 10 PSI. It's nice being able to plot it out for different scenerios. Most pumps don't have flow chart info though. these are my pump charts as a point of refrence: http://webpages.charter.net/catsamuel/fuel%20pump%20draw.jpg http://webpages.charter.net/catsamuel/fuel%20pump%20flow.jpg Most pumps will have similar curves, just different start/end points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Posted July 5, 2010 Report Share Posted July 5, 2010 Now that I understand the idea Chad I'm also wondering why more guys aren't using this kind of setup, especially the guys that autocross. It costs $$ and doesn't add HP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Komeuppance Posted July 5, 2010 Report Share Posted July 5, 2010 Yeah, there's plenty of room in front of the tank to fit a surge tank: http://www.fr33z3.net/starions/Apr06/196surge_tank_smaller.jpgThis is an Aussie built one, JAS. http://forums.austarion.com/viewtopic.php?t=11449&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=45 -Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Komeuppance Posted July 5, 2010 Report Share Posted July 5, 2010 http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Universal-Performance-All-Aluminum-Surge-tank-/140364279314?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item20ae5cee12 Here's a universal one that's not made in china, they even say they'll make custom stuff too. -Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiplee Posted July 5, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 5, 2010 (edited) http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Universal-Performance-All-Aluminum-Surge-tank-/140364279314?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item20ae5cee12 Here's a universal one that's not made in china, they even say they'll make custom stuff too. -Robert That's for coolant. Thanks for the picture of that setup though. Got any more input, pics, etc? Edited July 5, 2010 by chiplee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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