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40 miles on NEW motor, I think I have a rod knocking


jwrape
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I JUST got the motor in last night and it started up first turn.

Drove it today and it seems to have a knock or a LOUD rocker arm noise, can't tell.

So I pulled the valve cover off and saw nothing except MAYBE a broken piece of the valve cover but can't be sure it wasn't like that before because there was an intentionally removed piece on the rear f the VC.

Here is the pics of the piece missing that I am not sure of.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v177/jwrape/Conquest/mime-attachment-6.jpg

The head and everything else looked great, no problems at to see

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v177/jwrape/Conquest/mime-attachment-5.jpg

I pulled the oil plug and looked to see if there was anything on the end of the magnet. Not much to be seen here

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v177/jwrape/Conquest/mime-attachment-7.jpg

BUT I got to thinking that bearing material doesn't stick to magnets because it's more like a aluminum material, I think.

SO I drained the oil and found metallic oil in th bottom. Don't really know if that is the new bearings wearing off the NEW or if it's a bearing problem. No large flakes but I think if there was a problem it would be in the bottom of the pan. So I think I will be dropping the pan tonight to inspect. I am totally SICK

Here is the motor running

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v177/jwr...nt=SV_A0013.flv

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v177/jwr...nt=SV_A0014.flv

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that missing piece of valve cover is probably from where it was used with arp studs. also the oil will have a metallic sheen from the new bearings. i cant tell for sure from the viseo but it sounds like the top end to me. maybe the lifters have not pumped up. Edited by travs87tsi
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that missing piece of valve cover is probably from where it was used with arp studs. also the oil will have a metallic sheen from the new bearings. i cant tell for sure from the viseo but it sounds like the top end to me. maybe the lifters have not pumped up.

Hmmm, I just don't know. It does sound like the rear top end BUT It's loud and revs with the motor and will go away if the car is rev'd until the rpms level out again then it returns. It REALLY sounds like it did when I got the car with a spun bearing. I would think the lifters would have pumped up in 40 miles already. :character0285:

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the missing piece of the VC is indeed for ARP clearance

 

LIfters if put in a little low on oil will not fill u pn their own every time. If the rocker arm lash adjuster bleed off hole is blocked (many are) it will never pump up. You can clean it out with a small paper clip.

 

I always soak my lifters in paint thinner and them fill with diluted oil (pil/thinner mix) this helps get teh trapped air bubbles out and heeps them full untill startup.

 

If I were you, I'd check the lifters first while the VC is off. then if I didnt' find anything, I'd pull the pan off and check the bearings. It's a pain to do, but you don't want to waste that $$$ crank.

 

Metal dust is normal, it's from the cylinder walls, change the oil withing the first 200 miles (or when you pull the pan ;)).

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OK.....

 

First, try loosening the valve cover up while the engine is running. See if the noise diminishes. I had the exact same sound on my black one, and I had stripped a few of the cam tower bolts out. So, when I would tighten the valve cover up, the cam cradle would pull away from from the head, increasing the tolerances for the tappets, as well as making other assorted sundry noises.

 

Failing that, get a stethoscope. Hunt the noise down with it. Check for a broken valvespring, broken rockershaft, something like that.

 

Here's a little tip about rod bearings. They typically don't make racket once you put a load on them, and usually can be heard best around 2800-3200 rpm on the downsweep. This noise is definitely top end.

 

Tim

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Ok, i think the bearings are ok. Take a look and let me know what you think.....

They go in order from 1-4, I took two pics of the 4th because it was the problem back in the motor when I got it.

BUT remember this is only 40 miles on them. I don't know what 40 miles looks like on new bearings. Maybe one of you have seen low mileage bearings before. Hopefully these still look good.

IF so I will put it back together and chalk it up to a VERY loud lifter..... So far that's the only other thing I can think of.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v177/jwrape/Conquest/IM002526-1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v177/jwrape/Conquest/IM002525.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v177/jwrape/Conquest/IM002527.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v177/jwrape/Conquest/IM002528.jpg

and the second pic of #4

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v177/jwrape/Conquest/IM002529.jpg

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Ok, I also need to mention that when I got the oil pan off I wiggled all the rods from side to side and the #2 wiggle a little. Is this common or should they not move???

 

I would assume, correct me f I'm wrong that such a loud knock would be due to a totally destroyed bearing, right?

Edited by jwrape
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Those aren't knocking but they aren't any good now too much wear too quickly and far to easy to now change for the $40 they cost to not have to do this over again -throw them in the trash. Did you use assembly lube? You sure a lifter didn't get put in upside down? Did you do a compression check before the motor was ever started up? Sounds like partially an exhaust leak too. You get the rocker shafts back on correctly? Was this a hydraulic setup before? There will be slots in the shafts if you slide a rocker over to the side and each shaft has a machined dot that lines up with the end cap that has raised dots. Can you push any of the rockers down on the lifter end and make the lifter compress at all cause they aren't supposed to. If they do you can bleed the air from them the way they are now and air can get trapped inside of them and not come back out.

 

http://www.b2600turbo.com/images/lifter01.jpg

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Those aren't knocking but they aren't any good now too much wear too quickly and far to easy to now change for the $40 they cost to not have to do this over again -throw them in the trash. Did you use assembly lube? You sure a lifter didn't get put in upside down? Did you do a compression check before the motor was ever started up? Sounds like partially an exhaust leak too. You get the rocker shafts back on correctly? Was this a hydraulic setup before? There will be slots in the shafts if you slide a rocker over to the side and each shaft has a machined dot that lines up with the end cap that has raised dots. Can you push any of the rockers down on the lifter end and make the lifter compress at all cause they aren't supposed to. If they do you can bleed the air from them the way they are now and air can get trapped inside of them and not come back out.

 

http://www.b2600turbo.com/images/lifter01.jpg

I didn't assemble the head. When I bought the car from Jeremy, on this board, he had JUST put the new assembled head on and found that it had a spun bearing. So he sold it to me, I pulled the head and the rest of the top end off together. It ran perfectly except for the knock before this.

Should I buy a Mic and mic the crank, even though it was just turned .20 over?

 

Yea, I used assembly lube.

Edited by jwrape
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plastigage those rods, if one moved by hand, that is not good. I'm guessing you maybe have a .010: under crank with std. bearings. Happened to me once, made a terrible racket, but the beaerings looked OK when I pulled them.
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Just to satisfy my curiousity. Did you use assembly lube before installing the lifters and rod bearings? On the cylinder head you purchased, did you pull the rocker assembly apart,double check and clean everything??? If the seller of the cylinder head said it spun a rod bearing. Where do you think all the metal goes when that happens, into the oiling system for the entire engine. Cylinder head lubrication is a part of that. Heres a "old timers" way to chase down noise. Buy a mechanics stethascope. Place it on the bottom end of the block and cylinder head. Hey, it works, just ask Shelby or Ulrich Wolf (Tim) !!!

 

CALIBER 308

Edited by Caliber308
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I've heard good mechanics (with practice) can use a long shank screwdriver with the handle pressed againt their ear.

 

Yah, definalty pull the valve train, takes 3 minutes. Watch for those lash adusters to fall out all over the place where you can't find them ;)

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Just to satisfy my curiousity. Did you use assembly lube before installing the lifters and rod bearings? On the cylinder head you purchased, did you pull the rocker assembly off and double check everything??? Heres a "old timers" way to chase down noise. Buy a mechanics stethascope. Place it on the bottom end of the block and cylinder head. Hey, it works, just ask Shelby !!!

 

CALIBER 308

 

 

I did use assembly LUBE EVERYWHERE! :-) But the head and the entire top end, I pulled all together. It was already new and pre-assembled when Jeremy put it together right before i bought the car. He bought it with a cracked head, put a new head on, rebuilt the intake and then found it had a spun bearing and sold the car to me.

I didn't check the rocker assembly but the head was quiet and worked fine when it was on the motor previously, the motor just had a spun bearing, and sounded like it does now, although it doesn't have a bad bearing now.

Stethascope: I was about to use a small section of pipe when the car wouldn't start again, Don't know what that is, but I am not worried about that yet. I just went ahead and pulled the pan for my own re-assurance about the bearings. I ordered more bearings from Dad a little while ago but I am still concerned there is something else wrong or something wrong in the rods. The crank was turned .20 over, and I installed .20 over bearings, all should be fine, but I will plastigauge them this time. Was size Plastiguage do I use?

 

I still think there is something else going on, but I will make sure the rod bearings are good and then move on from there. Once I am sure the bottom end is good, the rest doesn't concern me as much.

Edited by jwrape
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Heres a "old timers" way to chase down noise. Buy a mechanics stethascope. Place it on the bottom end of the block and cylinder head. Hey, it works, just ask Shelby or Ulrich Wolf (Tim) !!!

 

CALIBER 308

 

The sounds is in the rear of the motor, I can't pin-point exactly where. Once I get it back together I will Stethiscope it if the sound is still there.

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Get the smallest size plasticgauge. I think you should have around .002 clearence. But need to dounble check that. Who's bearings are those? Are they a bimetal, or trimetal? The wear pattern should have been more evenly across the surface. You possibly had some dirt on the crank. Does the crank have a smooth mirror finish? Carquest is where I get my plasticgauge. But still with a rod knock I think the bearing would have been worse.
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I've heard good mechanics (with practice) can use a long shank screwdriver with the handle pressed againt their ear.

 

Yah, definalty pull the valve train, takes 3 minutes. Watch for those lash adusters to fall out all over the place where you can't find them ;)

 

I knew a mechanic that used a long screwdriver as a stethascope. Boy was he good!!! This guy could fix anything from a lawnmower to a Kenworth, taught me a lot about cars and engines.

 

CALIBER 308

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I knew a mechanic that used a long screwdriver as a stethascope. Boy was he good!!! This guy could fix anything from a lawnmower to a Kenworth, taught me a lot about cars and engines.

 

CALIBER 308

My Dad uses anything that will resonate sound, but for me a pipe has always given me the best results.

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Your using ARP Head studs, correct? If so, Sometimes the rear studs will come in contact with the valve cover. That might be your noise. More so if your using a Caravan valve cover. I know on mine I had to cut away quite a bit of material. Just a thought !!!

 

CALIBER 308

Edited by Caliber308
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I knew a mechanic that used a long screwdriver as a stethascope. Boy was he good!!! This guy could fix anything from a lawnmower to a Kenworth, taught me a lot about cars and engines.

 

CALIBER 308

 

Now that you mention it. I knew a mechanic who would put the end of the large screwdriver to the side of his head. He could "feel" the issue in the motor.

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Rod clearance range is .0008 to .0020".

Don't worry if you are slightly above .0020". My engine is on the far end of the scale and about .0027"

 

Check your mains while you are there.

The service range is .0008" to .0018".

Again if you are slightly past .0020" don't worry about it.

 

If you could mic the crank, it should be about 2.0669" journals and 2.3425" mains if the crank is .020" under.

Dad, Please check those numbers. I pulled them off a spreadsheet from another build. They don't reflect factory tolerances.

 

Hey what pistons did you use?

Did they need to be pointed in a certain direction or are they asymectrical?

Just trying to think of anything that could cause a knocking noise.

If an offset piston is installed backwards it will slap or knock.

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did you wash the crank after you got it back cause they don't wash them you do, the passages should have had some string and cloth pulled through the holes that feed main-to-rod

 

these rods were used in a motor that had ate up bearings? its a good idea to recondition those but if it were just a little wear they may be fine

 

I think the plastigauge you use is the green, the markings on the side of the package need to be in the range of where you clearance is to be, the more is mashes the less the clearance is

 

would have been nice if that crank had been polished, your bearings all show a similar wear pattern and its not an even journal surface those lines on each side are not to be there actually there shouldn't be any lines what so ever

 

rods to slide side to side on a crank journal, that's normal and supposed to be that way same for mains its just the #3 that is important

 

the rods have a tiny oiling passage that sprays up on the wrist pin, make sure those are open you'll see that on the rod end not the cap and to make sure just put a light up in the cylinder then look at the open end of the rod and see if you can see that light

 

the head, you really should tear that apart, all the crap from the last motor was pumped all through there and the cam could even be ate up and that head could actually be ruined if you can't look at it, you need to look at the journals and you need to flush out all those lifters

 

and while you are in there, look at this link:

 

http://www.b2600turbo.com/thrust_bearings.htm

 

and make sure you have aligned your 2 thrust bearings so their mating surfaces are flush with each other, it just take a few minutes to do and you can do that with the motor in the car just need to barely loosen those two bolts and pry the crank front to rear then to front then torque them back down while holding it pushed forward

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Get a mic on the crank 020 should be 2.0658-2.0666 ( 2.0858-2.0866 minus .020) pay attention to the sides of the crank see if they are a bit bigger as if the crank was polished and they dished the center- looks like that on the bearings- look at the wiping the bearing shows in the edges.

 

plastigauge needed should be GREEN gives readings from 001-003 it should be .001 to just a little over 002 ( .0007-.002)

 

Also check the end play of the crank as Indiana suggested. be sure it's not excessive or in a bind, side to side of the rods is ok. just check the dimensions. All of this is to be checked on assembly- not after a noise. but thats water over the dam.

 

Check your flywheel bolts or anything else around the back that may be hitting flywheel- look for shiny spots of rubbing.

 

Where the rods reconditioned?

 

I know you are waiting on new bearings, but you can check the clearances with the old bearings to see if there is an issue.

 

Dad

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Get a mic on the crank 020 should be 2.0658-2.0666 ( 2.0858-2.0866 minus .020) pay attention to the sides of the crank see if they are a bit bigger as if the crank was polished and they dished the center- looks like that on the bearings- look at the wiping the bearing shows in the edges.

 

plastigauge needed should be GREEN gives readings from 001-003 it should be .001 to just a little over 002 ( .0007-.002)

 

Also check the end play of the crank as Indiana suggested. be sure it's not excessive or in a bind, side to side of the rods is ok. just check the dimensions. All of this is to be checked on assembly- not after a noise. but thats water over the dam.

 

Check your flywheel bolts or anything else around the back that may be hitting flywheel- look for shiny spots of rubbing.

 

Where the rods reconditioned?

 

I know you are waiting on new bearings, but you can check the clearances with the old bearings to see if there is an issue.

 

Dad

 

 

If the crank was dished, what can I do now that the crank is installed? Nothing??? will it run like that for long or is it hopeless?

The rods are race prepped if that is what you are asking by reconditioned.

The Flywheel bolts are tight, I double checked them when I installed them and put thread lock on them. They are torqued to 101lbs.

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If the crank was dished, what can I do now that the crank is installed? Nothing??? will it run like that for long or is it hopeless?

The rods are race prepped if that is what you are asking by reconditioned.

The Flywheel bolts are tight, I double checked them when I installed them and put thread lock on them. They are torqued to 101lbs.

 

 

a few tenths dished would not be an issue but if it .0005 or more it could be. probably not causeing the noise tho.

Thats a first check. was that noise only after it got warmed up? or right away?

Louder cold? or louder when warm?

I'm surprised that that cover went down on the head and cracked- surely you would have heard/ seen/ felt something. I'd pull those rockers off and be sure nothing broke. it would take a lot of force on that rear VC bolt to break those pieces out.

 

Dad

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a few tenths dished would not be an issue but if it .0005 or more it could be. probably not causeing the noise tho.

Thats a first check. was that noise only after it got warmed up? or right away?

Louder cold? or louder when warm?

I'm surprised that that cover went down on the head and cracked- surely you would have heard/ seen/ felt something. I'd pull those rockers off and be sure nothing broke. it would take a lot of force on that rear VC bolt to break those pieces out.

 

Dad

After looking at the VC and thinking about it, you can tell that one end had been intentionally removed and I think that part that I took a pic of was intentional too, ALSO if it would have taken such a large chunk out it would have left debri in the top of the head. I think Jeremy modded the VC when he installed the ARP head studs before I had it. I think I am in the clear on the VC.

The noise is constant, hot or cold, the only change is when you rev the motor it goes away for a second until the rpms settle and then it comes back, just like a rod knocking. If it's ildling at 900 rpms, or if you rev it to 2000 rpms and hold it, you will hear it. Only the time it takes to go from 900- to 2000 does it quiet briefly and then return. Sounds just like a rod knock. I am thinking one of the journals is not in tolerence. But I will find out with the plastigauge. I tried to find a MIC tool but no one has one in town. Only Plastigauge.

 

On the Plastigague, I know I put it on the bearing and then torque it down and then pull it off, what am I looking for once I do that? A change in color or shape? How does that stuff work. Never used it before, but that is evident. :character0285:

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