DarksideDSM Posted April 21, 2011 Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 So I will go into more detail about this. First off, the car is an '86 esi-r widebody turbo intercooled. The computer #is MD101177. I have been all over this forum for days reading every thread i can to solve this problem. Problem, the other day I was out in it and noticed some hesitation above 5psi and at WOT in any state of boost or vacuume. So i had been getting the vacuum lines straightened out for a few days prior cause they were thrown on ports randomly. I got everything to its original port and it ran great. The FPR was unhooked originally. so what i did was hooked it to the port under it about 1.5". I thought perhaps It was running lean so i put the port on the IC piping to get more pressure. So, the day it started running bad I noticed the misfires were stronger than normal and decided to do a TPS/ISC reset. After the reset the car was running like a subaru. Then I pulled a plug to see what they were and what condition. fouled beyond belief. One had the tip and the ground protrusion touching aka no gap. so I went and got BPR8ES's and put them in and it also has 8mm ngk wires BTW. Then It ran the same. I put the new injector clips I had on and did a sweep test on the tps, it was perfect. I tested the coil and desided it was bad and got an msd blaster 2. didnt help, I replaced the CTS with no avail. by now its running super rich and backfireing throught the intake(after the backfire it will run right for half a second). i have no AF meter but i can tell cause the smell and the fact that the wall behind the car is now black.It runs so rough that i think it will jump out of the engine bay. so I decided to check the injectors for leaks. I cut the return off and jumpered the pump. not one drop from either injector. Two days prior i also changed the fuel filter up front. I checked the back and I was told it had a walboro 255 but it looks stock and has no filter between the pump and tank and also retains the diaphram on the outlet side of the pump. I have not opened the tank to check it and also havew not ran the codes but plan to do it tonite. I am suspecting a bad FPR, or restriction in return, or destributer(i havent opened it to check), or mas. also, when its running If i put my foot on the throttle it dies instantly and if i pumop the pettal fast it will raise in RPM then backfire and die. It idles at 3-400 RPM now. Tell me what you think and ask as many questions as you need to get an idea. I hope i havent missed anything. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarksideDSM Posted April 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 (edited) I havent done a compression test either nor checked the mechanical timing but almost 100% sure it hasent jumped cause I don park it in gear. and the gap on the new plugs is .o38 if that helps. Edited April 21, 2011 by DarksideDSM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natallica Posted April 21, 2011 Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 I'd almost bet someone is going to tell you that those are the wrong plugs However, I've changed my plugs three times and I still have an issue similar to this, and I have yet to figure it out. I'm now watching this thread!!! -N8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarksideDSM Posted April 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 (edited) They are the only plugs i could get on short notice. who thinks i should get some 7031's? those are the ones i realy want. Edited April 21, 2011 by DarksideDSM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
averse Posted April 21, 2011 Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 "so I decided to check the injectors for leaks. I cut the return off and jumpered the pump. not one drop from either injector." I likely know less about mechanics than you. My experience with this cars has been that the injectors are highly peculiar, and I wonder if your method of testing them will give you an accurate diagnosis. Do you have spare injectors to swap out as a test or can you sit the car long enough to sent them to Witch Hunter to be bench tested and cleaned? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarksideDSM Posted April 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 I could wait but thats the test as I know it and If im going to bench test Ill have my boss do it cause he is an electrcal engineer and seems to know alot about them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarksideDSM Posted April 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 Does anyone know how to test the MAS? or where in the FSM for the 86 i can find it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarksideDSM Posted April 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 There is also a 2.5" exhaust with no cat so its not clogged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarksideDSM Posted April 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 Also, the reason i put the computer # in the op is cause its an 86 and i thought they were suposed to spray the injectors at the same time/rate but mine is overly rich and it is only spraying one injector on idle. Am I missing something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexNYC Posted April 21, 2011 Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 i got lost with all the different scenarios. the injectors are fine, you did the clips, TPS/ICS is good/ plugs are good. Unplug the mas and start from there. it's going to be rich, but it will run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarksideDSM Posted April 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 (edited) i got lost with all the different scenarios. the injectors are fine, you did the clips, TPS/ICS is good/ plugs are good. Unplug the mas and start from there. it's going to be rich, but it will run.sorry for the confusion. when i unplug the MAS it hickups and continues running the same, then when i plug it back in it doesnt change.I did the same thing a week before this and same thing only it wasnt running bad and it hickuped and continued running smoothly If that makes sense. I dont think the Mas is bad but Im running out of possibilities. Edited April 21, 2011 by DarksideDSM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rcm Posted April 21, 2011 Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 Did you swap computers?Mine is a 88 but it would send signals to both injectors then one making it flood.Also if you have gas in the oil it makes it run bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarksideDSM Posted April 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 (edited) Did you swap computers?Mine is a 88 but it would send signals to both injectors then one making it flood.Also if you have gas in the oil it makes it run bad.no its the original computer i got with the car and from the # its the right one. It just doesnt fire like an '86 to my knowledge. no gas in oil im pretty sure. It looks dirty but not contaminated with gas or water/antifreeze. Edited April 21, 2011 by DarksideDSM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rcm Posted April 21, 2011 Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 Do you have another one to try? At least that would eliminate a problem.Do you have a noid light set to check thepulse from injector clip while cranking?I also had a reman computer that came with car and went through two morebefore it was corrected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarksideDSM Posted April 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 Do you have another one to try? At least that would eliminate a problem.Do you have a noid light set to check thepulse from injector clip while cranking?I also had a reman computer that came with car and went through two morebefore it was corrected.I dont have anything thats extra to swap and try. I wish i did but its to expensive to keep swaping parts that dont fix it. :mad: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rcm Posted April 21, 2011 Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 Man i hear ya!But the noid light would tell if there is a pulse or its on all the time.If fpr has gas in the vacuum hoseits bad and leaking fuel back into the intake.Take return line loose an run into another container to see if it changes.Need to check fuel pressure.You might also pull vc and check timing to make sure cam pin is 12 oclock and timing mark at 3Oclock being at tdc compression stroke.You have to basically do one thing at a time to make sure its correct or it will drive you crazy trying to figure it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarksideDSM Posted April 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 (edited) Man i hear ya!But the noid light would tell if there is a pulse or its on all the time.If fpr has gas in the vacuum hoseits bad and leaking fuel back into the intake.Take return line loose an run into another container to see if it changes.Need to check fuel pressure.You might also pull vc and check timing to make sure cam pin is 12 oclock and timing mark at 3Oclock being at tdc compression stroke.You have to basically do one thing at a time to make sure its correct or it will drive you crazy trying to figure it out.thanks for the sudgestions, all of those are on the to do list. I will try all the things you said and some others tonite but i dont get much time to mess with it unless its the weekend. What i find will be posted in an update later tonite or tomorrow. And by noid light you mean one of those things you ground with an aligator clip and touch the other end to something and it lights if it has power? I tested it with my DVOM and it looked to be pulsing at 11.2 to 11.8 volts and the other one was pulsing at .2-.4 volts so maybe the first one is pulsing out of its duty cycle and staying open. If its running and i unplug the first one it dies but if i unplug the second one it doesnt change. The 'first one' is the 11v thats on the drivers side, and #2 is the one closest to the valve cover that sees .2-.4. these measurements were taken on the ground side and both had a constant 11.8v on the positive side. Edited April 21, 2011 by DarksideDSM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indiana Posted April 21, 2011 Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 You can check the dirty clips to the injectors or swap clips but if an injector is sticking and its fouling with only one working either way those need sent off to be cleaned but I can't imagine what that has to do with an electrical engineer you need a injector cleaning machine, cleaner, ultrasonic bath, flow pump that can be reversed, metered vials and a way to fire them using a adjustable pressure pump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarksideDSM Posted April 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 22, 2011 You can check the dirty clips to the injectors or swap clips but if an injector is sticking and its fouling with only one working either way those need sent off to be cleaned but I can't imagine what that has to do with an electrical engineer you need a injector cleaning machine, cleaner, ultrasonic bath, flow pump that can be reversed, metered vials and a way to fire them using a adjustable pressure pump.Man i hear ya. I was not thiinking of all that when i said that. But i think they are working corectly but maybe getting the wrong signal. how much is a good test and clean from say witch hunter or someone cause if they are bad and the price difference isnt that much I will just upgrade to trilogy's or some stocks from PQ or someone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarksideDSM Posted April 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 22, 2011 Ok, update: I pulled the codes and am getting a 1 of course and a 3 witch is the MAS. now, can someone walk me through testing it and my options for replacement? I know theres 1G, maft+GM maf, and stock replacement thats $600. all I realy need to know about replacement is where do you get a 1G and how much is one, and if theres any other options than that. Or if someone knows someting else that could be wrong causing that code to be thrown. I know the wires need to be checked and the sensor itself. so can someone dig up ecu pinouts and values. I will look also, Im not asking for you guys to work and not willing to do it myself. I apreciate the help so far from everyone and the help yet to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rcm Posted April 22, 2011 Report Share Posted April 22, 2011 thanks for the sudgestions, all of those are on the to do list. I will try all the things you said and some others tonite but i dont get much time to mess with it unless its the weekend. What i find will be posted in an update later tonite or tomorrow. And by noid light you mean one of those things you ground with an aligator clip and touch the other end to something and it lights if it has power? I tested it with my DVOM and it looked to be pulsing at 11.2 to 11.8 volts and the other one was pulsing at .2-.4 volts so maybe the first one is pulsing out of its duty cycle and staying open. If its running and i unplug the first one it dies but if i unplug the second one it doesnt change. The 'first one' is the 11v thats on the drivers side, and #2 is the one closest to the valve cover that sees .2-.4. these measurements were taken on the ground side and both had a constant 11.8v on the positive side. The noid light has two prongs that the injector clip slips onto.It will show if it is flashing.One side of the clip will show voltage constant.The computer sends a ground signal to make them open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarksideDSM Posted April 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 22, 2011 The noid light has two prongs that the injector clip slips onto.It will show if it is flashing.One side of the clip will show voltage constant.The computer sends a ground signal to make them open.oh, i get it, i had no idea that existed. where does one aquire that? cause the maf code could be a combo of the injector problem and a diference in o2 reading and maf reading and the computers interpritation that the maf is the one wrong. right? Im diabetic and my sugar is low a little so if this makes no sense thats why. so work with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted April 22, 2011 Report Share Posted April 22, 2011 Sounds like its the mas...replace it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rabbit1 Posted April 22, 2011 Report Share Posted April 22, 2011 I had this problem when I first started on my car. Do you have factory injectors? are you 100% sure you have no vacuum leaks? any slight leak will cause a good bit of grief. A mightyvac pump would be your best way to test the system. How does you accordian hose look? is it soft or does it have a small crack? a big crack? Do you have a A/F gauge? this would give you a big clue as to what is going on with your fuel mixture, I put one in and it showed my car going lean once it got warm and lead me to believe the injectors were going bad. going rich is usually what a vac leak does, or a sticking injector. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosierquest Posted April 22, 2011 Report Share Posted April 22, 2011 The 86's run a map sensor don't they? Have you checked it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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