I These Plugs Fouled?

[Killtodie]

Here is a recap of what’s going on in this thread and my car.

 

Last fall the car was running perfectly fine, last upgrade I had done to it was a new air intake system, 1gMAS and sway bars. I put about 800 miles on the car after those upgrades.

One day my fuel pressure regulator started to leak, it turned out to be stripped threads on 2 of the 3 bolts that hold it in place, the seal wasn’t secure and was leaking, I temporarily fixed with RTV and put a few hundred more miles on the car.

Come late November I remove the distributor to replace its bad o-ring that was causing an oil leak. I also replaced the fuel pressure regulator with a known good one.

I had removed the dizzy twice in the past and got lucky by putting it back in the right way and having the car run fine but not this time. I attempted to start the car 6 times before realizing that I need to align the dizzy and do engine timing. At the time I didn’t have a timing light. It was the end of November, it was getting cold, I figure I might as well put the car away for winter.

Come late February, I had a friend who helped me out with this car before stop by and help me place the dizzy in correctly, do engine timing and get the car running again. We could not get the car to run, we checked and double checked everything, the car just wouldn’t start. It did however fare better with the fuel injectors unplugged. Unfortunately he had to go for the day, the only conclusion we came to was, that it was dumping too much fuel and flooding.

The next morning I removed the spark plugs to find them in bad condition, as seen in the pictures below. I cleaned them, put them back in, and tried starting again. It almost did, seemed to idle at 300rpm but not quite there. I removed and cleaned the plugs again and tried starting the car without the injectors plugged in. The engine turned over and idled fine had throttle response for the 5 or so seconds it ran on all the unburned fuel inside.

Since than I did a compression test, 120psi on all 4 cylinders. I removed the TB, it’s waiting on a rebuilt kit. I have new spark plugs and new o-rings for the fuel injectors from Trilogy Turbos. I will be buying a new working fuel pressure regulator just in case.

 

Go to page 7 starting at MikeC’s epic post to continue this story.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

in reference to this post here

http://www.starquestclub.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=101958

 

Before cleaning, straight out the block

http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/8805/img7124k.jpg

http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/8944/img7123.jpg

 

 

After a simple wipe

http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/8559/img7122z.jpg

http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/1497/img7120p.jpg

 

 

 

Can I reuse these plugs or do I need to use new ones? Or clean them with something? I think I have my old NKG somewhere, they only have like 800 miles on them

Edited April 2, 2010 by Killtodie

[MiniSRT4]

I wouldnt use those again

[IntercooledFlatty]

those are just fine, for you. what NKG plugs do you have?

[TexasQuest]

They look very oily, like you have a leak somewhere. Is your valvecover gasket good? That's the first and easiest thing to check.

[Killtodie]

I have the right nkgs, cant find them

 

yes, that does look like oil. i made a few posts in the back about oil bubbling out the plug holes when their gaskets were worn. after replaceing plugs, no more oil, people said it was a loose rocker cover, i dont know at this point. i found my lat oil leak with a worn dizzy oring, so i will see if I need to add oil, it was burning/losing some before.

 

 

since I cant find my old plugs, i will just clean this up more and see if the car starts

[Fanta]

... man I'd rather spend $8 and get some cheap spitfire plugs than reuse those

[Mazarin]

I think you have a bigger problem than fouled plugs...

[dmyers151]

Does your car have jet valves still?

 

Are you sure that's oil and not fuel or even coolant? Did you smell it?

 

What do the other 2 plugs look like and what cylinders did those two come out of?

Edited February 3, 2010 by dmyers151

[TexasQuest]

... man I'd rather spend $8 and get some cheap spitfire plugs than reuse those

LOL funny you say that. I changed out my burnt up ngk's with some brand new autolite plat's I found in my njv head I bought from the junkyard.

[quikconq]

you got the plugs out,, do a compression test,,,that second plug down has some detonation to the prong

does it not?????

looks like it to me

 

i would do a compression test

if they are in chronical logical order

 

1st photo cylinder 1

2nd photo cylinder 2

3 so on

4

 

i would have to say low compression in cylinder 1 and 2,,and possibly cracked head

 

this is PURELY a guess,,and i could be wrong,,,but ive seen plugs like that,,,and it wasnt good

Edited February 3, 2010 by quikconq

[Killtodie]

ehhhhh, i hope not.

 

 

as of right now it starts but doesnt stay running. if I run in with the injector clips removed, it will run for a few seconds just fine until the fuel in the TB runs out.

 

wont stay running with injector plugged in. lame.

 

 

i got the compressor tester thing, do I just plug it in and crank the engine and see what it reads?

[quikconq]

disconnect your injectors,,pull the coil wire

 

screw the plug adapter in ,,then hold your throttle to the floor,,,then crank it over

helps to have someone lookin at the gage, to tell you when it has reached top pressure

 

check one at a time and make sure all the other spark plugs are completely out of the head and then write the number down

Edited February 3, 2010 by quikconq

[Fanta]

i got the compressor tester thing, do I just plug it in and crank the engine and see what it reads?

 

Yup, pretty much - It REALLY helps to have a buddy to either crank the car or look at the guage

Edited February 3, 2010 by Fanta

[quikconq]

you never said if those plugs were in order????? Edited February 3, 2010 by quikconq

[Killtodie]

120 psi even on all 4 cylinders. removed all plugs, ran on each one, cranked 3 seconds each.

 

 

im getting a fuel leak from the 1st injectors, i think its the seals, they were beat up,i replaced them, the new ones are a hair thinner than the old ones.

 

 

after trying to start the car about 6 times, the plugs have the same black residue on them.

http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/5111/img7128g.jpg

 

what's next?

 

 

 

crap, i forgot to put the pedal down to the floor. the gauge holds its presure after you're done, but I had someone keep an eye on it incase it spikked and went down

 

 

does it matter with not having the accelerator pedal pressed?

 

ran back out with it still pluged into 4th. cranked it again with the gas pedal down all the way, same reading, 120

Edited February 3, 2010 by Killtodie

[Indiana]

Too much fuel for sure but I have seen something like this one time before but you won't like to hear what it was. That plug type shouldn't have ever been used in your motor anyway throw it away. You have that huge area all around there and it just doesn't get much easier to foul. That brown crap, you put octane booster in your fuel tank or fuel line antifreeze? You may have a cracked head. Sounds like your injectors are dirty but with plugs like that they couldn't ignite the fuel that was in there if they wanted to.

 

The motor that was fouling plugs in a few minutes all nasty like that was a rebuilt motor maybe 10k before but it had a cracked ring that ate a void in one cylinder about half way down and it was all blowby coming back in and the compression checked fine, the motor would run what seemed fine until the plugs fouled but the block was ruined unless it would get sleeved. Get some of the correct plugs and have your injectors cleaned.

Edited February 3, 2010 by Indiana

[Killtodie]

UHHH, what are the correct plugs? these autolites were sent to me by a member. before that I had NKGs that pepboys told me, i forgot what model, but I was told it wasnt the right one, i exchanged them for the right type. now i cant find them

 

now im told the plugs are wrong again... so, what plugs do I need to get?

 

i have no fuel addictive in there, maybe some trace of lucas oil, it wasnt added to the last tank.

this seal look bad? its leaking fuel now. maybe cause its cold, i dont know. everything was perfectly fine before

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/1193/img7129x.jpg

[Indiana]

You order four of these plugs

 

http://www.jegs.com/i/NGK-Spark-Plugs/739/BUR7EA-11/10002/-1?parentProductId=753971

 

and you send your injectors off to be cleaned here

 

www.witchhunter.com

 

You've had too many headaches already

[Indiana]

OH, you have those things in there for injectors. Maybe they are hooked up backwards or you have a MAFT or SAFC?

[Killtodie]

but the injectors are brand new! i bought them less than 8 months ago, worked perfectly fine for 1,000 miles. just wont start after the car sat for 2 months.

 

I looked into the TB hole from the air pipe, the injectors are spraying fuel, too much. i dont understand how clogged injecotres can add too much fuel for the car to start.

 

pepboys only has BPR6ES-11. i used them before i had these autolites installed.

 

also, jet valve delete has been done.

 

 

when i call auto stores for the part number BUR7EA-11 they keep referencing the autolites XS 63, which is what I've been using.

 

 

the injectors are correct, top is green 950cc, thats the secondary, the primary is 650cc and is black and is towards the fender. the car kinda almost starts with just the primary clip plugged in so nothing is hooked up backwards.

 

Like I said, the car runs starts and runs FINE without the injector clips hooked up, just on the fuel inside the TB. it only stays running for about 5 seconds.

 

Will not start up all the way with the injectors plugged in. I dont believe I have a cracked anything with 120 psi on all 4. no idea what that black stuff is.

 

no one sells the "right" plugs locally, I dont know why I am being told that the XS 63 Autolites are wrong now when way before I had a discussion topic and half of you said to get autolites. I am confused.

 

i dont know how my brand new injectors can be plugged, they spent the night inside the house and werent cold when i put them back in. they spray fuel.

 

 

I have my hands up in the air right now. car was running 100% perfectly fine before. the ONLY thing I did was replace a bad fuel regulator with a known working model. fuel psi reads 36. cant be bad regulator.

Edited February 3, 2010 by Killtodie

[Indiana]

http://www.b2600turbo.com/Spark%20Plugs.htm

 

 

click that link

 

Seems something in the two months has happened that may have started earlier. The throttlebody may be leaking coolant or the plugs that had that brown residue on them that combustion chamber in the head may be cracked. That's coolant causing rust or water mixed with oil.

 

I don't know what's done to your motor or if you said in the past but PCV valves leaking or a oil separator hooked up wrong. You said that there was oil leaking at the back of your head I know several times. You know, at the back of the head in that same cylinder is the oil return from the head through the block to the oil pan.

 

Did you or someone put a headgasket on that recently? One cylinder leaking oil/coolant won't cause the other three to foul plugs. Was it really rich before? Is there a chance you got two large injectors and not one large/one small? You sure you are hooking up only the small one to start the car on? If you connect both do they both fire? Its possible that a short in the wiring can cause both plugs to fire at startup and run. You rewire in new clips? If you see them BOTH fire when trying to start the car there is a wiring problem. You can hold that upper portion and aim it out into the air and have someone crank it over you don't have to put it back together just hold those injectors in or fuel pressure will blow them out and you'll get wet.

[JAinsworth]

I looked into the TB hole from the air pipe, the injectors are spraying fuel, too much.

 

You shouldn't see both injectors spraying when you crank it, you should only see the primary spraying. The secondary kicks in around 1/2 throttle or 3k rpms. I would suggest you follow Indiana's advice and get them cleaned and flow tested. Try using the NGK bp7es plugs gapped around 35.

Jimmy

[Killtodie]

alright, I'll buy new plugs. I read that link before, it doesnt say anything about Autolites so dont know why I was given/recommended them.

 

 

The injector clips are new, the throttle body has been replaced with a clean one. the injectors and clips are on correctly, I had that verified and double checked.

 

 

the engine was rebuild by the previous owner, I dont know to what degree. car came with old pistons, crank, bearings and rods and all that.

 

before this the engine was running fine.

The only thing I can say now is when I open the radiator cap I cant see any coolant inside. There is no trace of leaking coolant, nothing on the ground. I was adding coolant to the car the last time it ran. Maybe its just a bit low, had no overheating issues or anything coolant related.

 

 

 

Anyway, what is my next step?

-I will get those plugs

-I will double check the injector clips solder

-I will see what I can do to stop the primary injector from leaking, probably another bad o-ring.

 

Besides that, what else can I do? Prepare to full the head and inspect it and all that fun stuff?

[Indiana]

You have an air compressor? There is fuel laying in your intake and it needs to evaporate or be blown out. Take the plugs out, crank the motor over, open the throttlebody and blow air in there if you can to blow that fuel into the cylinders. Autoparts stores list what is common and what fits. Those OEM installed plugs are still available but not everywhere. Close plug to that except for some cut marks is what rotary motors use. You can google that part number and it comes up in many different vehicles, you add in semi surface discharge and you'll see more.

 

You'll still see that OEM plug is NGK catalogs or NGK racing applications and its because of its construction and its not easy to foul out. What one thing happens on all these cars all the time? Its your air fuel ratio jumping up and down. You're way rich at lower rpms with larger injectors and too much fuel pressure and its not "my spark blew out" or assumed BS like that its that the plug misfired after it was fouled. The fuel is gone and the air fuel ratio drops and the heat comes up and the plug cleans itself and it fires again and unless you can shut the motor down right when it happens and pull the plugs and look you'll never know what happened. Its not blowing the spark out and reducing the gap isn't the answer. Ignition failed, why? Too much fuel. What was a solution? They designed a spark plug for conditions like that and that's the BURxxxxxx part of the plug its the code for that type construction otherwise its all the same.

 

Common setup recently are aftermarket fuel pressure regulators. You have your boost build up to 15-20psi at 3000rpms at wide open throttle and the ECU is dumping in so much fuel it fouls the plugs, the car bucks and jerks and the only way around it is to rev it out in every gear and burn that fuel. Those plugs will help and not make that nearly as bad and no its not a cure for the problem it just makes the problem not such an issue. Still you have to deal with that and in the end its going to be a translator of some kind. The only thing making the gap smaller and smaller does is close down the gap so the fuel won't get in there as much and foul the tip as the spark get closer and closer it jumps more in one consistent path and keeps the carbon burned away. You have those multiple ground plugs with the tip sticking out in the air on the and those are just asking for trouble but work just fine for consistent correct air fuel ratio and I have those in other vehicles.

[Indiana]

When the cracks form they don't make it all the way through but eventually they do then they start to leak after the car heats up then it gets worse and worse and leaks all the time. From what you say and from the look of that plug you might make some time soon to pull the head and look. With just burning a little bit of coolant you'll not really see much white exhaust but you might still be able to smell it but if its covered up with too much fuel maybe not. So maybe your injectors are ok but just make sure they aren't both firing at the same time.

 

I don't know what someone said use Autolite plugs maybe because they work in their car and because you can get them at Walmart at 2am or they work on their setup but why would you get plugs from someone on there they aren't worth the shipping price.? For some reason they didn't want them either.