PAFirefighter11 Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 (edited) So we got the car to idle somewhat well. Not super well, but the best it's been so far. When we are driving or idling it, and try to rev it up steadily, right around 2000 to 2500 it just starts to cut out. It bounces JUST like it's hitting the rev limiter, but is nowhere close! We checked most of the sensors (TPS, injectors, etc.) and all are functioning properly. We were unable to check the MAF sensor on the intake, though. Weren't too sure how to check/what the reading should be. FWIW: There is barely a noticeable difference in the motor when the MAF sensor is plugged in or unplugged. The coolant sensors are NOT wired properly. One (single wire plug sensor) is broken and another (dual wire plug sensor) was just replaced, but is spliced into who knows what. Trying to find a wiring diagram for those sensors as well. Thanks again and sorry for all these posts/questions... I want this thing up and running ASAP! Edit ... video of what it's doing: P.S. Engine shot: http://pafirefighter11.smugmug.com/photos/619563059_B2JX8-X3.jpg Edited August 15, 2009 by PAFirefighter11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
v1xiii Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 (edited) Sounds like the secondary injector isn't kicking on, but you said you checked them. Edited August 14, 2009 by v1xiii Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAFirefighter11 Posted August 14, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 Correct. Checked both injectors. Both were reading within spec with the multimeter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosierquest Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 They can readwith a mulit meter but still not working. Sometimes the pintle will stick and the injector will not fire. one way to see if it is fireing is to put the main clip on the secondary and see if it will start. Did you ever get you're rich idle figured out? Did you try to remove the clip off the green injector while at idle. did it continue to run? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vbrad511 Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 A quick test. Unplug the secondary injector and start the car. Is it doing the same thing? If so.... The injectors themselve can spec just fine, but the connectors on these cars fail. If they're the original connectors, replace them. Order your new ones from DAD http://www.enginemachineservice.com/conquest.html or PQ at the IX site (which seems to be down at the moment) You might find something you can get on the injector, but if it doesn't fit correctly it may cause problems down the road (cracks, leaks, etc...) In the meantime pull the connectors and clean the contacts really good. It may get you by for a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAFirefighter11 Posted August 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 15, 2009 (edited) The running rich thing seems to have been the timing. We messed with it a bit more so it's running less rich. We also saw that the TPS was all the way to one side. We adjusted it while the car was running and it seems to run like a real car now, but still can't get it to run above 2000-2500 RPM. The TPS is also flipped opposite of what it looks like in the photos. The wires are coming out of the top of the TPS on the car, and the bottom of the TPS on the diagram. This shouldn't have an effect on anything though, as it's still going to function the same, correct? I did the injector thing, I forget what happened as this was a few days ago. I'll go back and do it today and let you know. Regular electronic connector cleaner will work for the injector connectors, right? Edited August 15, 2009 by PAFirefighter11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAFirefighter11 Posted August 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 16, 2009 Can a bad MAF sensor cause this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indiana Posted August 16, 2009 Report Share Posted August 16, 2009 You must set the timing with a light there is no other way and no guessing or what sounds or feels one way of the other. The injector is just an on-off valve. The specs are just the windings in the coil internally and that just means its either burned up or it isn't. If its burned up you will have zero resistance because the field coil is broken somewhere or burned open. The injector is just an electric magnet that pulls open a spring loaded needle that covers an opening that when open lets the fuel spray out. The spray you see sound look like fog if you see streams of fuel that injector is dirty and you can't expect the car to run worth a damn. These injectors are not like all other injectors. Some injectors do spray several different streams these just spray a very fine cone shaped pattern. The TPS that must be set with a volt meter. With and always should be, a slack throttle cable when at idle. The cable must be slack so you can move it in and out of the housing not just a little pull up and down. There is plenty of travel on the gas pedal to get WOT do not worry. If that cable is not slack then the idle motor can't turn up. The idle motor turns on when a little metal contact hits the stop on the throttlebody and it just mashes and is grounded up. That tells the ECU the car is at idle. The CTS also must be warmed up in order to set the TPS and idle and ignition timing. Change one and you must go back and recheck the other two. At idle, warm engine, the TPS must read below .5volts. If its above .5v then the ECU will not activate the idle motor. Its normal however for a cold motor to be able to idle when the TPS is just above .5v because the CTS tells the ECU the engine is cold. CTS also effects timing when cold. The two sensors you said were temp. sensors. Both would be two terminals in a T formation. The one with the white plastic end is for the temp. gauge unit. This is actually two sensors in one. One is just an on-off switch that when the car is warmed up allows an automatic transmission to use over-drive and also that same terminal lets the HVAC system function properly. In other words you can't go into over-drive or have high heat in auto mode if that sensor is bad. The other terminal on there is for temp gauge on the dash. The other two terminal sensor is for the ECU and it is a resistor. The end of it is molded into an oval shape. If it is not an oval shape then someone has put in the wrong sensor. The harness connector for that originally was a soft rubber molded socket that covered the end of the sensor to keep out water but by now most are hard and the biggest part of the end crumbled and fell off so all you have is a black hard rubber end with the T formation of the two terminals that were molded into the end of it. The black plastic ignitor box that is behind the coil. Those are known to eventually go bad and have erratic nonsense issues when they are dying. When they are dead you will have no ignition spark. When dying they can do all sorts of weird things. The car may not rev up, it may run but run like crap or it may run great then turn to crap for no reason. Those Accel coils also go dead for no apparent reason; chuck that POS in the trash can and get an MSD Blaster II. Spark plugs, have you inspected those? If they are fouled they will not fire properly. NGK plugs and wires are the only way to go. The OEM installed plug is BUR7EA-11 available on line such as Jegs or Summit. Very common issues are dead vacuum advance unit on the distributor. Wrong spark plugs. Dirty injectors. Corroded injector terminals that need cut off and replaced. You may have to cut into the harness several inches to find good clean wire to attach the new clips to. After you verified you have even compression in all cylinders then try and drive it. Next thing is to watch the exhaust for smoke, either white or blue. The PCV valve must be from the dealer not aftermarket. The oil separator and hoses need cleaned and the hoses can't be mashed or kinked and can't be cut. It sounds like you may be guessing at some of these things. The car won't run very well if not adjusted. It may appear complicated when you open the hood but if you break down each system by its parts it gets much easier. Its pretty simple really after you understand how each part works and what its supposed to do. http://www.jegs.com/i/NGK-Spark-Plugs/739/BUR7EA-11/10002/-1 http://photos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs123.snc1/5289_1027208978663_1778479606_56212_606787_n.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vbrad511 Posted August 16, 2009 Report Share Posted August 16, 2009 Change your clips, and have your alternator tested. You're voltage is low. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAFirefighter11 Posted August 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 17, 2009 You must set the timing with a light there is no other way and no guessing or what sounds or feels one way of the other. We set it best we could with a light a couple weeks ago and it misses on 1 or 2 cylinders when it's "timed" - it's running like a car right now at idle going by sound. But I'll have someone else time it. It's real hard to see that little notch on the pulley on this car. The injector is just an on-off valve. The specs are just the windings in the coil internally and that just means its either burned up or it isn't. If its burned up you will have zero resistance because the field coil is broken somewhere or burned open. The injector is just an electric magnet that pulls open a spring loaded needle that covers an opening that when open lets the fuel spray out. The spray you see sound look like fog if you see streams of fuel that injector is dirty and you can't expect the car to run worth a damn. These injectors are not like all other injectors. Some injectors do spray several different streams these just spray a very fine cone shaped pattern. I will check that. Just pop off the intake tube by the TB and watch for fuel, correct? The TPS that must be set with a volt meter. With and always should be, a slack throttle cable when at idle. The cable must be slack so you can move it in and out of the housing not just a little pull up and down. There is plenty of travel on the gas pedal to get WOT do not worry. If that cable is not slack then the idle motor can't turn up. The idle motor turns on when a little metal contact hits the stop on the throttlebody and it just mashes and is grounded up. That tells the ECU the car is at idle. The CTS also must be warmed up in order to set the TPS and idle and ignition timing. Change one and you must go back and recheck the other two. At idle, warm engine, the TPS must read below .5volts. If its above .5v then the ECU will not activate the idle motor. Its normal however for a cold motor to be able to idle when the TPS is just above .5v because the CTS tells the ECU the engine is cold. CTS also effects timing when cold. We checked the TPS with a multi-meter. It was reading .436 or so. However, no matter which direction we moved it, it did not change voltage at all. The two sensors you said were temp. sensors. Both would be two terminals in a T formation. The one with the white plastic end is for the temp. gauge unit. This is actually two sensors in one. One is just an on-off switch that when the car is warmed up allows an automatic transmission to use over-drive and also that same terminal lets the HVAC system function properly. In other words you can't go into over-drive or have high heat in auto mode if that sensor is bad. The other terminal on there is for temp gauge on the dash. The other two terminal sensor is for the ECU and it is a resistor. The end of it is molded into an oval shape. If it is not an oval shape then someone has put in the wrong sensor. The harness connector for that originally was a soft rubber molded socket that covered the end of the sensor to keep out water but by now most are hard and the biggest part of the end crumbled and fell off so all you have is a black hard rubber end with the T formation of the two terminals that were molded into the end of it. Here's a shot of the sensor location... The YELLOW arrow points to what I am assuming is the Temp Sensor Sending Unit for the dash gauge as it's unplugged and my dash has no readout. Single wire. The RED arrow is the Coolant Temperature Sensor for the ECU maybe? I dunno. It's the "T" you are talking about, but that is spliced and not going to anything in particular. The BLUE arrow is to another mystery piece that's got 2 holes where nothing is plugged in: http://pafirefighter11.smugmug.com/photos/622264536_MWxyd-O.jpg The black plastic ignitor box that is behind the coil. Those are known to eventually go bad and have erratic nonsense issues when they are dying. When they are dead you will have no ignition spark. When dying they can do all sorts of weird things. The car may not rev up, it may run but run like crap or it may run great then turn to crap for no reason. Those Accel coils also go dead for no apparent reason; chuck that POS in the trash can and get an MSD Blaster II. I'll check the ignitor box and at least go back to a stock coil if I can't grab an MSD Blaster II. Do you have the P/N for the MSD one? I have an account with MSD so I just need to make a call with a P/N. Spark plugs, have you inspected those? If they are fouled they will not fire properly. NGK plugs and wires are the only way to go. The OEM installed plug is BUR7EA-11 available on line such as Jegs or Summit. I only run NGK with turbocharged or nitrous equipped cars They were fouled once before, but not too bad. Light black buildup, smelled like turpentine (bad gas I am assuming). Replaced them with another set of NGK's on Thursday last week. Very common issues are dead vacuum advance unit on the distributor. Wrong spark plugs. Dirty injectors. Corroded injector terminals that need cut off and replaced. You may have to cut into the harness several inches to find good clean wire to attach the new clips to. Vacuum was good at the distributor, but you're saying it could be the internal piece not functioning properly? I'll check the injectors and wiring around the, thanks! After you verified you have even compression in all cylinders then try and drive it. Next thing is to watch the exhaust for smoke, either white or blue. The PCV valve must be from the dealer not aftermarket. The oil separator and hoses need cleaned and the hoses can't be mashed or kinked and can't be cut. We're checking compression this week, I hope. Gotta find time to do it now ugh. Smoke was white. That's gone. Smoke was then slightly gray. That's gone now too. No smoke during the last 3 starts as you can see on the video I added to the original post. It sounds like you may be guessing at some of these things. The car won't run very well if not adjusted. It may appear complicated when you open the hood but if you break down each system by its parts it gets much easier. Its pretty simple really after you understand how each part works and what its supposed to do. Thanks again for all the help, I'll post back up once I get a chance to check this stuff out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killtodie Posted August 17, 2009 Report Share Posted August 17, 2009 I was having and still having similar issues, I used to not be able to rev past 4.5 now it does, but starts to misfire. Things I replaced that helped me out -Throttle body (bought a rebuilt one) -new injectors -wire harness -spark plugs -rotor cap and cover -injector clips -coolant temp sensor each one item replaced made a small improvement, didn't cost me too much $350 for throttle and injectors, everything else was about $120 I'm getting a new vacuum advance, that might be my problem. You can also have a clogged cat, I see that your engine is stock. Best mods to do I hear is take out the cat and replace with a straight 2.5 pipe, remove the secondary air filter and charcoal filter, some vacuum lines that will no longer be needed and ABS delete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indiana Posted August 17, 2009 Report Share Posted August 17, 2009 (edited) Take the TPS off. On the throttle shaft is a little plastic arm with two tabs that stick out towards the TPS and on the TPS side there is another tab that looks like half of a dog bone. Those two parts go together so that arm lays in between the two raised tabs. If its upside down it can't work there is a flat side on the shaft so you can't put these on wrong. Your TPS, as you said by its output not changing, is doing nothing. Before you put it back on take the TPS with the ignition key "on" and using a volt meter verify that the TPS is changing voltage and it does so smoothly. If it has dead spots or won't change at all its bad. The wires may be brittle don't break them off. The think you pointed to in your picture is the thermo valve. For the car to run you need only three vacuum hoses attached and all other must be capped, or routed properly of course. There is a hose from the dist. vac. adv. unit that goes to the throttlebody. It is hooked to the nipple that is most forward of 3 in a row. There is the fuel pressure regulator on the throttlebody. Coming out of the bottom of it is a nipple and the hose for it makes a 90 degree turn to the throttlebody and it goes right there; its about 2" long. The vacuum advance unit on the dist works in two directions. It will both advance and retard ignition timing. Boost pressure causes it to retard timing, vacuum to it causes it to increase timing. Since there is always an ample supply of vacuum and you can't sometimes tell if it is increasing timing it may seem like it is working -and isn't leaking internally. When it needs to retard timing under boost it can't react quick enough or at all and that end up having the ignitor change timing if it senses knocking. If it looks original its likely bad. They run about 65.00 but they may have went up. The wastegate actuator on the turbo needs a hose that is connected to the intercooler plumbing. If some of those other hoses are cracked or hooked up wrong they can cause problems. Edited August 17, 2009 by Indiana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAFirefighter11 Posted August 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 17, 2009 Thanks so much Indiana! I am printing all this out and bringing it with me tonight when I head down to work on the car. Your help is VERY MUCH appreciated! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAFirefighter11 Posted August 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2009 Okay, so here is the latest... When COLD, and I mean cold.. aka first time I come out to start the car after a day or more, it runs great. This happens for approx 3-4 minutes then it either dies or I shut it off. Then when started again, same revving issue where it won't let me above 2000-3000 RPM. Throttle cable has good slack. TPS is good. Timing is good, approx .5* retarded. Plenty of fuel is going into the throttle body at idle, but it looks as though nothing is coming in from the 2nd injector when on the gas. It was hard to see, as it backfired in my face lol. Spark Plugs are still okay. MAF test results... while car is idling Yellow w/ black wire = 5v Red = 10.9v Green w/ red = 5.9v Black w/ yellow = 0v Black w/ white = 8.2v Green w/ red = 4.7v Vacuum lines are good. I replaced any that looked so-so. Routings are all good. Tell me if this is normal: At idle, of the 3 nipples coming off the throttle body, only the 1 closest to the firewall side has good vacuum. The other two have barely anything, if that. I thought the nipples may have been clogged, so I checked. The two end ones are the same depth, the middle one is maybe 1/2" less in depth. I talked to my buddy who is a Chrysler tech via the phone. He said it sounds like a bad ECU/PCM, whatever you want to call it. He is going to come over on Saturday with a SnapOn Scan Tool from work, as well as some other tools and such to check the electronics. Are these cars OBD 1? The connector in the top portion of the glove box looks like it to me, I just wanted to confirm. Would bad ground/power to the ECU/PCM cause this type of issue? Thanks again to everyone, especially you Indiana! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technology Posted August 18, 2009 Report Share Posted August 18, 2009 They are OBD zero, I don't think his scan tool will plug in. I say start unplugging things until the problem changes or goes away. Unplug the mass air sensor and see if you cna rev it higher. Unplug the CTS, see if it changes, unplug the secondary injector, see if it's running right, or if it does the same thing or changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indiana Posted August 18, 2009 Report Share Posted August 18, 2009 I've only ever seen one bad ECU and it was the 02 circuit. No scan tools work on this car its too old. In the factory service manual there are some checks you can do in section 14 and a few more in section 8 all about the fuel system and ignition. In the fuel section there are pages in reference to a think called an ECI checker. That is just a volt meter and adapter harnesses that allow you to do the same thing easier as using a hand held volt meter. Those are all the "tests" you can do. There are specs for the resistance range for the CTS. Does the exhaust smell rich after the car is warmed up? Could just be dirty injectors. The secondary will only spray when the throttle is moved quickly or under boost. Clean injectors while the engine is cranking open look like this. This is just the primary as that is all that sprays while cranking on the 87-89 fuel system. http://www.b2600turbo.com/IM009687.AVI http://www.b2600turbo.com/IM009688.AVI You checked the plugs again? Symptoms of a cracked head are the car starts up good after it has sat overnight then it will start ok them after it warms up and the crack opens up it starts to spray coolant into the cylinder. If the head appears original that may be the problem. You did mention white exhaust? That's coolant burning in the cylinders. I got an 86 from the original owner few months ago. He never drove the car hard and it has less than 100k on it and he stopped driving it because he though the head gasket was blown. When I pulled the head the gasket was fine but the head had two cracks in it. One was very large. The heads start to crack and there is no preventing it, its just how long they take for the crack to go deep enough into the water jacket. (about 1/4") They crack in between the intake and exhaust valve seats, the width there is about 1/8" exposed. http://photos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs112.snc1/4826_1021027104120_1778479606_40789_4911618_n.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAFirefighter11 Posted August 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2009 (edited) They are OBD zero, I don't think his scan tool will plug in. I say start unplugging things until the problem changes or goes away. Unplug the mass air sensor and see if you cna rev it higher. Unplug the CTS, see if it changes, unplug the secondary injector, see if it's running right, or if it does the same thing or changes. Ah, beautiful. Mine has a port, on the top of the inside area above the glove box. It looks like an OBD port. But it's not? CTS is unplugged, and has been, note this photo: http://pafirefighter11.smugmug.com/photos/622264536_MWxyd-O.jpg It's spliced and not currently connected to anything. The coolant sending unit for the gauge is currently ripped out. I just RTV'd it for the moment so it doesn't spring a leak. The MAF connector is cracked/doesn't have the clip portion. I just put a zip tie on the damn thing to keep it on last night: http://photos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs179.snc1/6733_124162091079_502471079_2897865_4143402_n.jpg With the secondary injector unplugged it runs fine, but does the same rev-limiter deal from what I remember. I've only ever seen one bad ECU and it was the 02 circuit. No scan tools work on this car its too old. In the factory service manual there are some checks you can do in section 14 and a few more in section 8 all about the fuel system and ignition. In the fuel section there are pages in reference to a think called an ECI checker. That is just a volt meter and adapter harnesses that allow you to do the same thing easier as using a hand held volt meter. Those are all the "tests" you can do. There are specs for the resistance range for the CTS. Hmm, alright. He told me he's seen bad ECU's before 'cause this exact issue, but he hasn't seen the car in person yet. Does the exhaust smell rich after the car is warmed up? Could just be dirty injectors. The secondary will only spray when the throttle is moved quickly or under boost. Clean injectors while the engine is cranking open look like this. This is just the primary as that is all that sprays while cranking on the 87-89 fuel system. http://www.b2600turbo.com/IM009687.AVI http://www.b2600turbo.com/IM009688.AVI I haven't smelled the exhaust since last week. Every time I did smell it it's smelled somewhat rich. Gotcha on the secondary injector. I'll get a vid of my spray, but from what I remember and could see, it looked like enough fuel was making it to/sitting on the TB flap. My friend confirmed this as well while I sat in the car and hit the gas. You checked the plugs again? Symptoms of a cracked head are the car starts up good after it has sat overnight then it will start ok them after it warms up and the crack opens up it starts to spray coolant into the cylinder. If the head appears original that may be the problem. You did mention white exhaust? That's coolant burning in the cylinders. I got an 86 from the original owner few months ago. He never drove the car hard and it has less than 100k on it and he stopped driving it because he though the head gasket was blown. When I pulled the head the gasket was fine but the head had two cracks in it. One was very large. The heads start to crack and there is no preventing it, its just how long they take for the crack to go deep enough into the water jacket. (about 1/4") They crack in between the intake and exhaust valve seats, the width there is about 1/8" exposed. I haven't checked the plugs since Thurs/Fri of last week. The white exhaust was back when we first started it up after the rebuild. There was a lot of lube/grease on the new internals, I'm fairly certain it was just that stuff burning off. It did not smell like burning coolant. I've owned too many Mopars in my life, so I know the burning coolant smell very well. I don't think it's the head as the motor was JUST rebuilt and put back together. There are maybe 3 miles on the motor since the rebuild. I'm hoping my Chrysler Tech buddy will be able to get this thing taken care of.... I just want it running ... I want to drive it! Edited August 18, 2009 by PAFirefighter11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosierquest Posted August 18, 2009 Report Share Posted August 18, 2009 (edited) Try moving the plug off the main injector to the secondary and see if it is spraying when you try to start. It actually should start and run for a bit. Did you ever get a chance to check the codes with a multi meter? Edited August 18, 2009 by Hoosierquest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Couth'nize Posted August 18, 2009 Report Share Posted August 18, 2009 What's with the vac gauge needle going down when rev? I think your timing is off, as in timing chain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAFirefighter11 Posted August 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2009 What's with the vac gauge needle going down when rev? I think your timing is off, as in timing chain. Brand new timing chain, lined up at TDC, all valves and such are dead on. Timing is good as confirmed last night with a timing light. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vbrad511 Posted August 18, 2009 Report Share Posted August 18, 2009 If it runs the same with the seconadry unplugged that tells me the injector is either bad or not getting signal. Take a read through this... http://starquest.i-x.net/viewtopic.php?t=9...42dbaef48ce679b And try what Hoosier said. Swap the injector leads and see if it fires at all. The connectors/clips on these car fail, both at the connection and within the wiring within several inches of the clip. They just can't take the heat. The wires corrode and/or break inside the insulation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edde Posted August 18, 2009 Report Share Posted August 18, 2009 Have I got this right, the CTS is not connected to the harness? The ecu needs that to make fuel mixture when HOT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAFirefighter11 Posted August 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2009 Try moving the plug off the main injector to the secondary and see if it is spraying when you try to start. It actually should start and run for a bit. I did this and it ran fine from what I remember. I prob won't be working on the car again 'til Sat when my buddy shows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAFirefighter11 Posted August 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2009 Have I got this right, the CTS is not connected to the harness? The ecu needs that to make fuel mixture when HOT. Correct. In the photo I posted, is the CTS the sensor where I have the red arrow pointing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edde Posted August 18, 2009 Report Share Posted August 18, 2009 Correct. In the photo I posted, is the CTS the sensor where I have the red arrow pointing? Yes. You must have that in order to get anywhere at all... Do you know where to wire it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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