tsi_tom Posted May 31, 2014 Report Share Posted May 31, 2014 (edited) I just rebuilt this motor, my first one, and it has this knocking noise. Take a look: Video link of the motor starting: http://s1069.photobu...0edb19.mp4.html Video of the knocking noise: http://s1069.photobu...f7c1ea.mp4.html The noise gets louder when under a load. The noise seems to be in the timing cover. History, the motor has maybe 10-15 minutes of run time. Timing components are new. Same set from engine machine service. Block taken to a machine shop for cleaning, magnafluxing, boring 20 over, decked .008. Crankshaft also checked by machine shop. Standard size on the crank. Balance shaft bearings were replaced by the machine shop. Balance shaft journals looked great. Motor previously never spun a bearing. I resued the oil pump. Oil pressure is 3/4 on the guage. I have yet to set the timing with a light yet. Timing set http://i1069.photobucket.com/albums/u467/tsi_tom/The%20Missouri%20Project/Reassemble%20of%20the%20engine/timing%20assembly/pcitimingkits_zps88d2bacf.jpg http://i1069.photobucket.com/albums/u467/tsi_tom/The%20Missouri%20Project/Reassemble%20of%20the%20engine/timing%20assembly/timingfront2neededscrew_zps08139f63.jpg Rod Bearing clearances #1 http://i1069.photobucket.com/albums/u467/tsi_tom/The%20Missouri%20Project/Reassemble%20of%20the%20engine/Platiguageofthepiston1_zps66ae94c8.jpg #2 http://i1069.photobucket.com/albums/u467/tsi_tom/The%20Missouri%20Project/Reassemble%20of%20the%20engine/Platiguageofthepiston2_zps72a84357.jpg #3 http://i1069.photobucket.com/albums/u467/tsi_tom/The%20Missouri%20Project/Reassemble%20of%20the%20engine/Platiguageofthepiston3_zpsd7965ac4.jpg #4 http://i1069.photobucket.com/albums/u467/tsi_tom/The%20Missouri%20Project/Reassemble%20of%20the%20engine/Platiguageofthepiston4_zps64735001.jpg I have the tear drop gasket on the oil pump http://i1069.photobucket.com/albums/u467/tsi_tom/The%20Missouri%20Project/Reassemble%20of%20the%20engine/oilpumpgasket_zpsb1e9d1f5.jpg Edited May 31, 2014 by tsi_tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrngwae Posted May 31, 2014 Report Share Posted May 31, 2014 What did you do for the balance shafts? New bearings? How wore were the shafts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsi_tom Posted May 31, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 31, 2014 What did you do for the balance shafts? New bearings? How wore were the shafts? New bearings were installed by the machine shop for the balance shafts. Journals look really good. The motor previously never spun a bearing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ucw458 Posted May 31, 2014 Report Share Posted May 31, 2014 (edited) You have the wrong oil pump gasket. The L shaped cavity in the top right of your pic feeds the head. There should be no gasket material covering that area. http://web.archive.org/web/20120123160840im_/http://www244.pair.com/oldguys/057-650a.jpg Edited May 31, 2014 by ucw458 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsi_tom Posted May 31, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 31, 2014 You have the wrong oil pump gasket. The L shaped cavity in the top right of your pic feeds the head. There should be no gasket material covering that area. http://web.archive.o...ys/057-650a.jpg Thanks you very much Jeff! I did order this gasket from Mitsusbishi. I will see where I went wrong. Looks like some other cavities are blocked as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsi_tom Posted May 31, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 31, 2014 (edited) And here I thought I was doing the right thing getting the correct gasket directly from Mitsubishi. Edited May 31, 2014 by tsi_tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skullzaflare Posted May 31, 2014 Report Share Posted May 31, 2014 And here I thought I was doing the right thing getting the correct gasket directly from Mitsubishi.its a wonder they had a listing, ordering from DAD (enginemachineservice.com) is a better choice than dealer most of the time aside from the wrong gasket, sounds like theres a stripped cam tower bolt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuGG Posted May 31, 2014 Report Share Posted May 31, 2014 http://www.starquestclub.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=137606&hl=%2Boil+%2Bpump+%2Bgasket Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsi_tom Posted May 31, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 31, 2014 http://www.starquest...l +pump +gasket That gasket doesn't have the L either. I think I have the right gasket http://starquest.i-x.net/viewtopic.php?t=913 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ucw458 Posted May 31, 2014 Report Share Posted May 31, 2014 The gasket you have on there is for the NA motors that have the oil pump pickup bolted to the bottom of the block. You can use that gasket but you have to cut out the areas covering the cavities. Like before the "L" shaped cavity flows to the head. The "I" shaped cavity feeds the oil pump gear bearings and the rear lower balance shaft bearing. Did you bleed the lifters? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsi_tom Posted May 31, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 31, 2014 I didn't bleed the lifters. Should I? The car makes a roller skate noise for about 1 second and then the oil pressure builds and it gets quite. I am trying to find the order sheet that I got when I ordered that gasket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ucw458 Posted June 1, 2014 Report Share Posted June 1, 2014 There is no oil outlet for the lifters so it's possible to have an air bubble trapped in them. To get the air out after the engine has been run you stick a needle into the hole on the top of the rocker arm over the lifter. That hole leads to the hole in the top of the lifter. Working the needle up and down a few times in the lifter helps get air out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsi_tom Posted June 1, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2014 Hi Jeff, I checked the Chrysler 87-88 parts manual on the oil pump gasket. Only one is listed. It is part number MD060521 which is superseded by MD191432. That is the gasket that I bought from mitsubishiparts.net. I don't see how it can be wrong since only one gasket is listed for 87-88 2.6 engines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ucw458 Posted June 1, 2014 Report Share Posted June 1, 2014 If you look at the gasket I posted vs the one in your pic you will see they are different. The one I posted has all the proper passages cut out. But the other pump gaskets will also work if you cut out the extra material around the SQ pump passages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsi_tom Posted June 1, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2014 If you look at the gasket I posted vs the one in your pic you will see they are different. The one I posted has all the proper passages cut out. But the other pump gaskets will also work if you cut out the extra material around the SQ pump passages. I agree that the extra passages are cut out, but that is not the Mitsubishi gasket. What I am trying to infer is that the gasket is wrong which is causing the knocking noise. From the Chrysler 87-88 Import manual it says the gasket is not wrong. Maybe there is a technical service bulletin stating the corret gasket and part number. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ucw458 Posted June 1, 2014 Report Share Posted June 1, 2014 (edited) The material covering the passages isn't stopping oil flow. It also wont hurt your engine right now. But in the it could be a potential problem. The pump has the passage for the oil to flow in but that gasket material is in that passage un-supported. Over time the gasket can swell a bit and get weathered by all the oil passing by it. Then bit's of the gasket in the oil stream can break off and end up in the head. It will take a long time for this to happen but it is a possibility. That's why I'm telling you about it. A few minutes with an exacto knife and potential pump gasket problems are eliminated. Your problem sounds like lifters ticking to me. But it's hard to be sure when watching a video. Engine noises can come from anywhere. On one of my new engines years ago I had put the flywheel on then immediately used loctite on the bolts. Since the flywheel was hot and it was the first bolt a drop of loctite got between the flywheel and crank and dried instantly. That caused some flywheel runout that I didn't know about. When I started the engine for the first time it sounded like it had rod knock. Edited June 1, 2014 by ucw458 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nycain Posted June 1, 2014 Report Share Posted June 1, 2014 i just got my engine rebuilt , it only has 12 miles on it .. it had the same noise . was worried , only to find out i had mechanical lifters that needed ajustments once they were ajusted the noise went away Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsi_tom Posted June 1, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2014 i just got my engine rebuilt , it only has 12 miles on it .. it had the same noise . was worried , only to find out i had mechanical lifters that needed ajustments once they were ajusted the noise went away Thanks, that seems promising. I will try to bleed the hyrdaulic lifters today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsi_tom Posted June 1, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2014 Took the rocker assembly off http://i1069.photobucket.com/albums/u467/tsi_tom/The%20Missouri%20Project/Motor%20Issue/rockerassembly_zps4b500c4c.jpg Do you think it is ok to leave the cam gear connected to cam when putting the rocker assembly back on? I didn't want to disturb the timing. http://i1069.photobucket.com/albums/u467/tsi_tom/The%20Missouri%20Project/Motor%20Issue/cylinderhead_zpsf0f5b5ee.jpg All the lifter were tight. I had this head built at a machine shop. They transfered all the components from my old head to the new head. Only one lifter showed an issue but it was tight. This was probably done on the old head before I got a new head from EMS. Think I should replace it? http://i1069.photobucket.com/albums/u467/tsi_tom/The%20Missouri%20Project/Motor%20Issue/lifterwithissues_zpsbde19dfa.jpg I will bleed and clean the lifters again to be sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ucw458 Posted June 1, 2014 Report Share Posted June 1, 2014 Yeah that lifter is junk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsi_tom Posted June 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 7, 2014 I setup to clean and bleed the lifters. The machine shop had moved cam and rockers over to the new head from enginemachineservice.com. http://i1069.photobucket.com/albums/u467/tsi_tom/The%20Missouri%20Project/Motor%20Issue/readyforliftercleaning_zpsad51f890.jpg Three pans. A B and C like the TSB calls for filled with diesel fuel. http://i1069.photobucket.com/albums/u467/tsi_tom/The%20Missouri%20Project/Motor%20Issue/setupforliftercleaning_zpse7d97fca.jpg http://i1069.photobucket.com/albums/u467/tsi_tom/The%20Missouri%20Project/Motor%20Issue/setupforliftercleaning2_zpsd930b050.jpg I cleaned and bled the lifters. They were very clean. So this isn't the cause of the knocking noise. I didn't have the special hydraulic lash adjuster holding tool so I used a paper to hold them for installation. http://i1069.photobucket.com/albums/u467/tsi_tom/The%20Missouri%20Project/Motor%20Issue/papercliplifterholdingtool_zps44729d17.jpg The paper clip worked great! I started the car. Now I have a lifter tick! I got a Snap On stethoscope and started to probe around to see where the knocking noise is coming from. http://i1069.photobucket.com/albums/u467/tsi_tom/The%20Missouri%20Project/Motor%20Issue/snaponstethoscope_zpsba04c138.jpg The noise is coming from the front of the engine around the number one cylinder. It seems like a rod knock. That is what my gut is telling me, but I also have this roller skate noise on startup. I don't want to take the timing cover off if I don't have to. I will try and adjust the tensioner first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funky Phil Posted June 7, 2014 Report Share Posted June 7, 2014 Thats the same oil pump gasket I use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funky Phil Posted June 7, 2014 Report Share Posted June 7, 2014 (edited) Roller skate could be the chain rubbing against the timing cover which then just goes to slapping it occassionally. Id remove those jet valve bolts Edited June 7, 2014 by Funky Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsi_tom Posted June 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 7, 2014 Roller skate could be the chain rubbing against the timing cover which then just goes to slapping it occassionally. Id remove those jet valve bolts That is what I am thinking. It made the same noise on the first engine start with no belts connected. At that time I thought it was the lifters needed oil. The noise goes away as the oil pressure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsi_tom Posted June 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 7, 2014 Looking at this picture http://i1069.photobucket.com/albums/u467/tsi_tom/The%20Missouri%20Project/Reassemble%20of%20the%20engine/timing%20assembly/timingfront2neededscrew_zps08139f63.jpg I tighted up the special bolt B?, the tensioner bolt, while the cam sprocket was on the pedestal. I should have loosened it when I put the head on. It is probably too tight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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