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#21 Shelby

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Posted 22 February 2009 - 04:19 PM

Kevin i was in no way complaining just trying to get my thoughts all in alignment
with the dowel at 12:00 the intake has done it's thing (piston is on fireing stroke )and the exh is next to open
hence the exh lobe first
for the intake to be on the opening stroke the cam dowel is at 6:00 and the valve has already start'd opening

ok now i understand the number,,on you linar chart  180degrees is 0 or TDC
it's hard to pin point cause you use'd 50 degree markers

blowing it up and adding 5 degree markers it apears the valve opening point is very close @20btdc,, that is due to the .006 lift measureing point , that would make the point of valve open a few degree's late

Edited by Shelby, 22 February 2009 - 04:41 PM.

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#22 TurboRaider

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Posted 22 February 2009 - 06:42 PM

QUOTE (Shelby @ Feb 22 2009, 09:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Kevin i was in no way complaining just trying to get my thoughts all in alignment
with the dowel at 12:00 the intake has done it's thing (piston is on fireing stroke )and the exh is next to open
hence the exh lobe first
for the intake to be on the opening stroke the cam dowel is at 6:00 and the valve has already start'd opening

ok now i understand the number,,on you linar chart  180degrees is 0 or TDC
it's hard to pin point cause you use'd 50 degree markers

blowing it up and adding 5 degree markers it apears the valve opening point is very close @20btdc,, that is due to the .006 lift measureing point , that would make the point of valve open a few degree's late



Shelby,

Thanks for the input...  It really helps.

I'm no expert at spread sheets so this is a learning experiance.    

Also in Excel if you put the mouse pointer on any part of any line in the graph it tells you the degrees and the lift!  I dont know if the reader version does that or not but I hope it does.  

Kevin

Edited by TurboRaider, 22 February 2009 - 06:44 PM.


#23 Shelby

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Posted 22 February 2009 - 07:54 PM

kevin i know you have a lot of time and effort into this, beleave me no one appreates it more then i do,, i'm not as well verse'd in the english language as some but with the right  referance points i can make out most things

those things i ask'd about i wasn't picking at your work , only trying to find a starting point so  my poor brain could  work it all out so i could understand what the numbers etc was telling me,,

that and maybe get a better idea of what i'l be going thru  to install the  aussie cam , will
i have to pull the head and swap valves or not , cause i honestly can't recall  if the truck  head  has the short or long valves right  off ,,been too many heads  sence then  smile.gif

is it posible to change the chart numbers to reflect every 5 degrees or better yet every 2 degrees

any way GREAT work you've done   thanks
Shelby trance's StarQuest i-x.net
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#24 TurboRaider

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Posted 22 February 2009 - 10:07 PM

QUOTE (Shelby @ Feb 23 2009, 12:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
kevin i know you have a lot of time and effort into this, beleave me no one appreates it more then i do,, i'm not as well verse'd in the english language as some but with the right  referance points i can make out most things

those things i ask'd about i wasn't picking at your work , only trying to find a starting point so  my poor brain could  work it all out so i could understand what the numbers etc was telling me,,

that and maybe get a better idea of what i'l be going thru  to install the  aussie cam , will
i have to pull the head and swap valves or not , cause i honestly can't recall  if the truck  head  has the short or long valves right  off ,,been too many heads  sence then  smile.gif

is it posible to change the chart numbers to reflect every 5 degrees or better yet every 2 degrees

any way GREAT work you've done   thanks


Try this:

http://kevincar1.home.comcast.net/big_cam_pic.JPG

Kevin

#25 Shelby

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Posted 23 February 2009 - 08:19 AM

yes that helps,,thanks,, now sence you've first hand testing of rolers vers slipers, tell us how much roll effort differance are in the two set ups
for those guys that have never turn'd a rollor cam set up by hand

oh  and are you gona  do a oem slip rocker cam with slip rockers and compair that to the aussie roller cam and roller arms

Edited by Shelby, 23 February 2009 - 08:21 AM.

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#26 88TSI_Rob

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Posted 23 February 2009 - 07:43 PM

I hope you don't mind Kevin, but I thickened up the lines so they are easier to read. With the jpeg compression it was tough to make out the colors.



Red - AUS Roller Cam w/ AUS Roller Rockers
Black - Slipper Cam w/ AUS Roller Rockers
Yellow - AUS Roller Cam w/ V6 Roller Rockers
Teal - Slipper Cam w/ V6 Roller Rockers


Great work so far! I'm interested to see how the baseline slipper cam w/ slipper rockers compares to the AUS roller cam and roller rockers.



Posted Image

#27 TurboRaider

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Posted 23 February 2009 - 09:36 PM

QUOTE (88TSI_Rob @ Feb 24 2009, 01:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I hope you don't mind Kevin, but I thickened up the lines so they are easier to read. With the jpeg compression it was tough to make out the colors.


Thanks,

I hope to be able to test the slipper cam with slipper rockers next weekend.

Way too many projects....  

Kevin

#28 Shelby

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Posted 02 March 2009 - 12:14 AM

wink.gif
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#29 TurboRaider

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Posted 02 March 2009 - 01:47 AM

QUOTE (Shelby @ Mar 2 2009, 06:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
wink.gif


I got the cam cleaned up and ready to go....  Long story but I ended up mixing concrete instead.  Something about a cracked footing in the basement where the cast iron sewer pipe exits the house.  Some home repairs need to get done sooner than later.


Back on it this Friday.  

BTW  I did find during the cam cleanup that it is an inverse radius profile, AKA it has a pear shape , not an egg shape.

Kevin





#30 Tim_C.

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Posted 02 March 2009 - 12:32 PM

Yes, and a true mechanical slipper cam should have a hump on the exit ramp to keep the clatter down. Our OEM mech cams do not have that hump.
'87TSi .510Roller Cam, JE Forged, TS Rings & plateau honed walls, lightened rods, race prepped crank, mains line honed, balanced, 17C, 3"EX, 2"HardPipes, AlFly, rrfpr, 88trans, 3.90's w/posi plate mods, polyBushings, STSprings, KYBStruts, Camber Plates, CustomAlternator
Traded for new set of tires for my wife's Buick: '87 TSI Gold that needs just about all steering and suspension parts replaced, injectors, a new transmission, clutch, and various electrical gremlins. New owner is a mechanic who is already driving it. I couldn't stand letting it sit any more!
'86 ESiR - OEM Roller Cam, Wiseco Forged 8:1 Pistons, Chad's equal length header, TEP T3/T4 turbo, ACT HD clutch, Fidanza Fly, custom 3" exhaust, 3 core oversized radiator, O-ringed block, AJUSA metal shim head gasket, Dawes Device boost controller
'85 Plymouth Conquest Auto , Wiseco 8:1, super light pins, shaved rods, hi-torque cam, 2.5 Exhaust
'84 Dodge Conquest Parts car
'83 Starion - Gutted stock exhaust with '87 TSi muffler, New engine with: BS Elim,forged Wisecos,balanced,Schneider274H,marnal w/oversized stainless valves
'83 Cannonball Run II Jackie Chan car, Basic ring and bearing job w/less than 6K original miles on body, steering, suspension, & rear end, Lightened stock fly, BS Elim, Walbro 255LPH FP, NEW Clearwater head with all new parts, intercooled, 14G turbo, 2750 car weight
'96 Mitsu Mirage w/rebuilt head. Gets 35+MPG.
'87 Dodge Ram50 4WD Rebuilt engine, fresh stock head, Weber carbed, BS elim. Runs great now!
'97 Buick Ultra (supercharged Park Avenue)

#31 Shelby

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Posted 03 March 2009 - 01:20 AM

a  mechanical sliper cam has several of these humps as you call them some are to alow oil  under the sliper , if you watch your dial indicator as you turn the  cam you can spot them on the base  before and after the lobe ramps , the  hyd has one to fill the lifter a tad bit just before lifting
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#32 TurboRaider

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Posted 07 March 2009 - 12:18 AM

I put the roller cam into the Raider this afternoon.  One lifter is noisy...  I will have to take a look at that tomorrow.

I did take a short test drive and the roller has better low end power.  In OD at 50 mph and 2000 RPM the motor pulls smoother with more torque.

Off idle is better as well.  At idle you can hear a tiny bit of chain slap as the rollers cause the drive to load and un load depending what side of the cam flank they are on.  Nothing really noticeable, just slightly different.

No question there is less friction.  

At 3000 RPM the pull seems pretty good, once I get the valve lash adjuster fixed I will take it up a few more RPM's.

Kevin

Edited by TurboRaider, 07 March 2009 - 12:22 AM.


#33 Shelby

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Posted 07 March 2009 - 12:31 AM

you already sold me smile.gif
now if i can get  done with this stinkin  caravan smile.gif
after trany .....timeing chain
but thats another story
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#34 Tim_C.

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Posted 07 March 2009 - 12:40 AM

I noticed all of the lifters in the AUS roller rockers looked a bit worse than the average lifter I've seen before. There is an "I" shaped mark on the valve end, and the rollers seemed a bit rougher looking. I'm not sure which rockers and lifters you used, but I wouldn't use the lifters from Australia that I've seen.

Some added noise also comes from the rollers themselves. They will run a little noiser than the slip rocker.
'87TSi .510Roller Cam, JE Forged, TS Rings & plateau honed walls, lightened rods, race prepped crank, mains line honed, balanced, 17C, 3"EX, 2"HardPipes, AlFly, rrfpr, 88trans, 3.90's w/posi plate mods, polyBushings, STSprings, KYBStruts, Camber Plates, CustomAlternator
Traded for new set of tires for my wife's Buick: '87 TSI Gold that needs just about all steering and suspension parts replaced, injectors, a new transmission, clutch, and various electrical gremlins. New owner is a mechanic who is already driving it. I couldn't stand letting it sit any more!
'86 ESiR - OEM Roller Cam, Wiseco Forged 8:1 Pistons, Chad's equal length header, TEP T3/T4 turbo, ACT HD clutch, Fidanza Fly, custom 3" exhaust, 3 core oversized radiator, O-ringed block, AJUSA metal shim head gasket, Dawes Device boost controller
'85 Plymouth Conquest Auto , Wiseco 8:1, super light pins, shaved rods, hi-torque cam, 2.5 Exhaust
'84 Dodge Conquest Parts car
'83 Starion - Gutted stock exhaust with '87 TSi muffler, New engine with: BS Elim,forged Wisecos,balanced,Schneider274H,marnal w/oversized stainless valves
'83 Cannonball Run II Jackie Chan car, Basic ring and bearing job w/less than 6K original miles on body, steering, suspension, & rear end, Lightened stock fly, BS Elim, Walbro 255LPH FP, NEW Clearwater head with all new parts, intercooled, 14G turbo, 2750 car weight
'96 Mitsu Mirage w/rebuilt head. Gets 35+MPG.
'87 Dodge Ram50 4WD Rebuilt engine, fresh stock head, Weber carbed, BS elim. Runs great now!
'97 Buick Ultra (supercharged Park Avenue)

#35 TurboRaider

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Posted 08 March 2009 - 11:38 PM



http://kevincar1.home.comcast.net/rollertestv3.xls

I added two tests.  Slipper / slipper new is the same cam I tested the roller lifters with but with the slipper rockes it was designed for.  This is a mechanical cam...

Slipper / slipper old is the cam I was running in the car.  Its a hydralic cam.

Both show a lot more overlap.  

For my Turbo Raider the roller feels like a much better match.

In a few weeks I will try the AU roller with the V6 rockers.

I will neaten up the data next weekend and provide overlap figures.

This is pretty much just raw cam profile data.

Kevin




#36 turbosigma2

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 12:14 AM

QUOTE (Tim_C. @ Mar 7 2009, 01:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I I'm not sure which rockers and lifters you used, but I wouldn't use the lifters from Australia that I've seen.

.


Just a bit of background. The 4g54 roller rockers were fitted to Australian built Magna's between 1992-1994. An average one would have 200,000 miles on the clock. Most heads and valve gear would be from stuffed Magna's. in wrecking yards. Chances are the components will be a little worse for wear.
V6 rockers on the other hand were made from 1994 to 2007. Maybe able to still find new items, but items from wrecks would still have useful life left in them.

Edited by turbosigma2, 11 March 2009 - 12:15 AM.


#37 Tim_C.

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 03:34 PM

QUOTE (turbosigma2 @ Mar 10 2009, 11:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Just a bit of background. The 4g54 roller rockers were fitted to Australian built Magna's between 1992-1994. An average one would have 200,000 miles on the clock. Most heads and valve gear would be from stuffed Magna's. in wrecking yards. Chances are the components will be a little worse for wear.
V6 rockers on the other hand were made from 1994 to 2007. Maybe able to still find new items, but items from wrecks would still have useful life left in them.


Yes, I agree. I walk through salvage yards all over the country and the V6 Caravan's tend to have rockers in very good condition compared to the 2.6L Caravans (slippers). The oiling seems to be better on the V6.
Except one head on a Caravan 2.6L that was recently replaced. Mike C. and I both knew it was a fresh head, so we pulled it for him. Sometimes you run into some really good finds. You just have to go take a walk once a month or so to find them.

'87TSi .510Roller Cam, JE Forged, TS Rings & plateau honed walls, lightened rods, race prepped crank, mains line honed, balanced, 17C, 3"EX, 2"HardPipes, AlFly, rrfpr, 88trans, 3.90's w/posi plate mods, polyBushings, STSprings, KYBStruts, Camber Plates, CustomAlternator
Traded for new set of tires for my wife's Buick: '87 TSI Gold that needs just about all steering and suspension parts replaced, injectors, a new transmission, clutch, and various electrical gremlins. New owner is a mechanic who is already driving it. I couldn't stand letting it sit any more!
'86 ESiR - OEM Roller Cam, Wiseco Forged 8:1 Pistons, Chad's equal length header, TEP T3/T4 turbo, ACT HD clutch, Fidanza Fly, custom 3" exhaust, 3 core oversized radiator, O-ringed block, AJUSA metal shim head gasket, Dawes Device boost controller
'85 Plymouth Conquest Auto , Wiseco 8:1, super light pins, shaved rods, hi-torque cam, 2.5 Exhaust
'84 Dodge Conquest Parts car
'83 Starion - Gutted stock exhaust with '87 TSi muffler, New engine with: BS Elim,forged Wisecos,balanced,Schneider274H,marnal w/oversized stainless valves
'83 Cannonball Run II Jackie Chan car, Basic ring and bearing job w/less than 6K original miles on body, steering, suspension, & rear end, Lightened stock fly, BS Elim, Walbro 255LPH FP, NEW Clearwater head with all new parts, intercooled, 14G turbo, 2750 car weight
'96 Mitsu Mirage w/rebuilt head. Gets 35+MPG.
'87 Dodge Ram50 4WD Rebuilt engine, fresh stock head, Weber carbed, BS elim. Runs great now!
'97 Buick Ultra (supercharged Park Avenue)

#38 TurboRaider

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 10:11 PM

QUOTE (turbosigma2 @ Mar 11 2009, 05:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Just a bit of background. The 4g54 roller rockers were fitted to Australian built Magna's between 1992-1994. An average one would have 200,000 miles on the clock. Most heads and valve gear would be from stuffed Magna's. in wrecking yards. Chances are the components will be a little worse for wear.
V6 rockers on the other hand were made from 1994 to 2007. Maybe able to still find new items, but items from wrecks would still have useful life left in them.



Can that camshaft still be bought new?  I would like to be able to set a few people up with them that run 4WD's  So far I'm really happy with mine, its a perfect match for my Turbo Raider.  My rockers were in decent shape....  The noise was my fault.  

Also if you look at the cam data is shows that the roller has as good an opeing rate as the slipper at the seat.   I should be able to run the V6 rockers in a few weeks.  I'm getting ready for a well deserved vacation.  

Kevin C

#39 Tim_C.

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 11:13 PM

Sounds good Kevin! I hope to use it with the V6 rockers too. It will be a few weeks before I can get to putting it on a head and checking to make sure the valves will close all the way. I have a fairly new Marnal that I believe will close the valves just fine. The older the head (especially with valve jobs), the less chance of closing the valves because they sit deeper in the seat and preload the lifter more.
'87TSi .510Roller Cam, JE Forged, TS Rings & plateau honed walls, lightened rods, race prepped crank, mains line honed, balanced, 17C, 3"EX, 2"HardPipes, AlFly, rrfpr, 88trans, 3.90's w/posi plate mods, polyBushings, STSprings, KYBStruts, Camber Plates, CustomAlternator
Traded for new set of tires for my wife's Buick: '87 TSI Gold that needs just about all steering and suspension parts replaced, injectors, a new transmission, clutch, and various electrical gremlins. New owner is a mechanic who is already driving it. I couldn't stand letting it sit any more!
'86 ESiR - OEM Roller Cam, Wiseco Forged 8:1 Pistons, Chad's equal length header, TEP T3/T4 turbo, ACT HD clutch, Fidanza Fly, custom 3" exhaust, 3 core oversized radiator, O-ringed block, AJUSA metal shim head gasket, Dawes Device boost controller
'85 Plymouth Conquest Auto , Wiseco 8:1, super light pins, shaved rods, hi-torque cam, 2.5 Exhaust
'84 Dodge Conquest Parts car
'83 Starion - Gutted stock exhaust with '87 TSi muffler, New engine with: BS Elim,forged Wisecos,balanced,Schneider274H,marnal w/oversized stainless valves
'83 Cannonball Run II Jackie Chan car, Basic ring and bearing job w/less than 6K original miles on body, steering, suspension, & rear end, Lightened stock fly, BS Elim, Walbro 255LPH FP, NEW Clearwater head with all new parts, intercooled, 14G turbo, 2750 car weight
'96 Mitsu Mirage w/rebuilt head. Gets 35+MPG.
'87 Dodge Ram50 4WD Rebuilt engine, fresh stock head, Weber carbed, BS elim. Runs great now!
'97 Buick Ultra (supercharged Park Avenue)

#40 turbosigma2

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Posted 12 March 2009 - 12:24 AM

QUOTE (TurboRaider @ Mar 11 2009, 11:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Can that camshaft still be bought new?  
Kevin C


M9 heads can still be had new, but it looks like the roller cams are almost non existant.

Crow cams are the biggest supplier of standard and modified cams in Australia, and they do not have any.
http://www.crowcams.com.au/media/catalogue...ni%20,Sigma.pdf







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