Tim_C. Posted July 7, 2009 Report Share Posted July 7, 2009 Well, this is the engine that has the o-ringed block that I bought. It drips water as soon as I fill the radiator. The drip is coming from between head and block under the #2 exhaust port. I looked at another block and there is one head bolt with 2 water jackets one on each side. One of those jackets is leaking out the side of the engine. Anyone have any suggestions other than going with a copper gasket. I wonder if it is worth a try to retorque the head. Like drain the water below the head and loosen all bolts and do the entire retorque procedure again. It looks like all water jackets have sealed except this one. I doubt I made a mistake when I torqued the head down, but I guess anything is possible. I'm out of town for a few days, so I have some time to come up with a plan. I torqued it down to 85 lbs with ARP studs and ARP Moly Lube. What do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slowquest Posted July 7, 2009 Report Share Posted July 7, 2009 personally, I wouldn't try anything other than pulling the head off to see why it didn't seal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pure_insanity Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 (edited) i talked to the machine shop about o ringing my block during my last head gasket pop reassembly. he said it would sole my cylinder blow problems but it would open me up to the possibility of just what you have here. he talked about a "cube" of a sealer that you put in the radiator and let it get hot and this "cube" of sealer would stop the leak. i didnt go this route so i never asked much farther about it. sounds like some sort of stop leak but that is all i can tell you. maybe see if the machine shop knows anything about this. ive never talked to dad about it but i would say hes the best source for info on something like this. i trust what he says. Edited July 8, 2009 by pure_insanity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ottrocket44 Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 Make sure the rings are not contacting the head gasket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technology Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 I thought you were supposed to go with a copper gasket when you used o-rings. You gonna be making 500+hp? ARP's are usually rated about 15% lower than what they can actually be torqued to, maybe you can just torque 'em another 10lbs and see what happens. You could also copper spray the bottom of the gasket to see if that helps. Or get thinner o-rings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PDX87Starion Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 (edited) No you dont have to use a copper gasket with o-rings if set up a certain way. Infact most o-ringed blocks I know of do not use copper gaskets. What gasket did you use? I have heard the early (87 and under) felpro gasket is better for o-rings. Also didnt your o-rings stick out higher than what others were doing? (I know you bought the block that way) I think the bigger o-rings that stick up higher might require a copper gasket with a reciever groove in the head. ?? But I dont know the specifics. Edited July 8, 2009 by PDX87Starion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim_C. Posted July 8, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 Yeah, these rings stuck out .014 or so I recall. .007 is the normal that is used with the 8770 gasket. I used the thickest composite gasket I could find due to the .017 thing. The AJUSA metal shim/composite combo one Dad sells. I measured it, a 9116PT, and an 8770PT. It was the thickest of the three. They use the 8770 because it is cheaper and extra sealing is not needed with an o-ringed block, plus it adds that much more compression being thinner. ARP's are usually rated about 15% lower than what they can actually be torqued to, maybe you can just torque 'em another 10lbs and see what happens. Yeah, that is what I was thinking. It sure wouldn't hurt except for maybe warping the head! At this point I would rather try that than pulling it all apart. I have everything connected, AC, cruise control, everything on this car. I can always fix the head if I hurt it. I have a couple of other heads I could use if needed too. I have my high RPM engine torqued to 110 with the same ARP studs and lube with no problems, so I don't think it would be overtorqued if I took this one up to 95 or so. I do have Chads hi-flow header and a TEP T3/T4 turbo on it! I plan to keep it under 14Lbs of boost for a while since it is an '86. I may experiment later with a MAF-T on it and a boost cut eliminator. I guess my question now is how should I try the retorque. The engine has not yet been started. Should I simply tighten them up a bit from where they are? Or should I loosen them one at a time and retorque higher? Or should I loosen them all and retorque higher from beginning to end? Or am I losing it and kidding myself thinking I will get this thing to seal? LoL! It leaked about a cup of water overnight. Not much at all after filling it all the way. I had the front tires 6" off the ground while it sat in the shop and I saw the water puddle first thing in the morning when I came in. Along with some scrape marks on the floor next to a pile of floor dry from a present the shop cat left for me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 Tim, typical o/ring without copper gasket should protrude about .006 , You sure there was no crack in that water jacket to bolt hole? If the wire is protruding too far it can hold the head up cause a leak. If sounds too bad to try a block sealer if it leaks just putting water in the radiator. You could try it, along with a retorque. what have you got to lose? Did you spray the gasket to help seal? Might try that also. Dad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technology Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 If you retorque them, you might not be able to get a proper reading without loosening the studs first. Maybe just loosen them all and start over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indiana Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 The fire ring on that layered steel gasket I'd think was far harder than any other you could find including a sheet of copper and since its not coated at all I can see that this wouldn't want to seal and if it can't compress then you are past the limit for a non flat deck that won't seal a gasket anyway. I'd also think that the oring must be able to completely be compressed into the fire ring to work no matter what the gasket used was. If the coolant can get through the sealant (which in your case I'm assuming is sprayed on to the steel outer layer so it can't eat at the gasket material since its steel) then it can start to eat at the gasket or go in between the layers of it around the coolant openings (like I had recently with a really crappy brand of intake manifold gasket and caused it to fail from the inside out) and maybe that is what is happening not that it can't compress the gasket into the oring but that the coolant is running between the layers since its loose from the oring not being able to compress enough to at least get past that minimum spec. number for being flat. If that is the case then tightening it more would only be stressing the head not the gasket I'd say the gasket has mashed all that it can by now. Changing to a smaller diameter wire might not seal to this gasket I'd use a new one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrazilBoy Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 I know dumb question but did you straight edge the head to make sure all is kosher? Same with the block deck is all flat and even? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psu_Crash Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 Didn't know you could spay copper gasket sealant on the Ajusa gasket?? I may try that soon since I have an issue with pressurizing the coolant under boost, but compression checks out perfect. Seems the O-rings are huge ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonboyb Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 (edited) From personal experience, .017 is going to be hard to seal. We set one up with .015 protrusion and tried several gaskets before we found one that would seal. It was actually the Felpro 9116 that sealed as it was a softer compound and allowed the rings to cut deeper. Pagemo is the current user of that engine and once we put on the 9116 it was a done deal. He hasn't really run the car hard yet (MPI with T04 turbo) so longevity is still to be seen. He o-ringed the head instead of the block, but inital torque-down sealing should be similar. Matt (LivesTSI) has another o-ringed engine we did and we set it at .010. No issues sealing that one. Nothing major on that car yet but it's been fine for several months of normal driving/boosting. We never considered using an AJUSA HG as I thought it was a true MLS and it would seem dang near impossible to get the rings to compress into the gasket correctly. Am I wrong about the AJUSA being MLS? Edited July 8, 2009 by jonboyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 From personal experience, .017 is going to be hard to seal. We set one up with .015 protrusion and tried several gaskets before we found one that would seal. It was actually the Felpro 9116 that sealed as it was a softer compound and allowed the rings to cut deeper. Pagemo is the current user of that engine and once we put on the 9116 it was a done deal. He hasn't really run the car hard yet (MPI with T04 turbo) so longevity is still to be seen. He o-ringed the head instead of the block, but inital torque-down sealing should be similar. Matt (LivesTSI) has another o-ringed engine we did and we set it at .010. No issues sealing that one. Nothing major on that car yet but it's been fine for several months of normal driving/boosting. We never considered using an AJUSA HG as I thought it was a true MLS and it would seem dang near impossible to get the rings to compress into the gasket correctly. Am I wrong about the AJUSA being MLS? Ajusa is NOT an MLS gasket. Metal shim maybe with com[posite core. Dad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PDX87Starion Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 Yeah, I would think the softest HG would be better than the thickest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edde Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 Since everyone is weighing in I would have to think sealing this is going to be very difficult. It would require a whole bunch of crush. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shelby Posted July 9, 2009 Report Share Posted July 9, 2009 Tim if it leaks under no pressure your not going to get it to seal,, what you will do is bend the head by over tightning the head studs , i'm with some others try the 9116 pt gasket , i have one of those gaskets you use'd and it's much harder to compress then a fel pro , theres actualy very little material to compress besides that the fel pro has slightly raise'd beads of sealant arround the water ports , that can only help Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim_C. Posted July 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2009 I posted a thread about which gasket to use before I assembled the engine and got little response. I never realized the fel pro was softer. I wish I would have had the older black AJUSA metal shim gasket that TEP sold. It was soft and thick. The new Ajusa us a great gasket, but isn't working like I'd hoped on this application. It is a bit thinner than the older one and more rigid. I knew this would happen after checking the o-ring protrusion to be as thick as it is. Whoever did this engine was moron. There isn't a thing about the deal that turned out well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psu_Crash Posted July 9, 2009 Report Share Posted July 9, 2009 Any room to deck off the block a little? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PDX87Starion Posted July 9, 2009 Report Share Posted July 9, 2009 What about using a softer wire? Like copper instead of stainless. I wish there was a site that explained everything and every method of o-ringing. Its seems like its just a a solution racers/engine builders came up with years ago and every engine builder or shop does it their own way after some trial and error. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edde Posted July 9, 2009 Report Share Posted July 9, 2009 Seems like (and remembering the other thread) this one was setup to have grooves in both the block and the head. What else makes sense unless someone simply made a mistake, cut the wrong groove and had to use wire to fit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim_C. Posted July 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2009 I found out the size of the grooves later. That was my purchasing mistake, but I didn't know anyone would make them so big. That size is for old school copper gaskets. I'm definitely going to try taking the torque up higher to see if it seals. It is one small leak with no other leaks visible. I'm hoping I get it to seal, but if it doesn't, then I will try something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edde Posted July 10, 2009 Report Share Posted July 10, 2009 I'd imagine any of us would have figured the grooves were whatever people do that works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shelby Posted July 10, 2009 Report Share Posted July 10, 2009 when you say old school your forgeting most had iron heads they don't bend as readily as alum heads , over tourqeing will most asuredly bend the head ,if thats your answer at least remove the head and use a sealer on the gasket , i don't beleave that tourqeing that gasket will cause it to stick and do damage to it's self ,, if it does i got one you can have if useing some thing like cooper coat spray alow it to dry before installing and tourqeing head , posibly even a second coat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psu_Crash Posted July 10, 2009 Report Share Posted July 10, 2009 My shop suggested o-ringing the head and block and using .010" wire with a fel pro gasket. I declined since I was already paying the guy $1200 for block work and the o-ring was another 250ish. Currently on my third Ajusa in 4k miles .... I blame the MegaSquirt learning curve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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