Foreverzero Posted January 17, 2011 Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 Well guys I'm in the process of amassing everything I need to get this thing's stance in order but I'm drawing a blank on one particular issue. Front upper strut bars are hard as hell to find, if you can find one at all. MKI always has rear bars in stock but I just about never see any front ones, second-hand or otherwise. Now there's no denying that a front strut bar is not gonna make near as much impact as sway bars, but with the new semester coming up I'm not looking at sway bars and poly bushings until mid-summer. So what I intend to do is find out what dimensions a bar would need to comply to to be able to fit a starquest, and buy a bar that has those dimensions. Obviously it wouldn't be a bolt on a affair but, they're also not terribly complex. If a bar fits the dimensions needed then with a minor amount of cutting, bending, or welding it should theoretically fit. My question goes out to all starquest owners that have a strut bar and could post up the dimensions. I can then cross reference that with other possible matches (240's, RX-7's, MA70 supra's, etc). Or if anyone has tried to do this before and has any relevant info (or horror stories lol) I'd also love to hear. Thanks very much for reading, hope the wall of txt didn't sear your retinas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
89PalermoSHP Posted January 17, 2011 Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 i think you can still get a cusco bar, its just a pain ordering it and takes some time to get. others will certainly know more on this subject. the mk1's bar is not adjustable, big deal to some and not to others. the s&m bars were the nicest offered in my opinion and actually had 3 bars instead of one. unfortunately, they are no longer being made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patra_is_here Posted January 17, 2011 Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 i know this is off topic, and you don't have to answer, but what do you need a strut bar for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyWadd Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 (edited) i know this is off topic, and you don't have to answer, but what do you need a strut bar for? Because it makes the car handle better. Didnt you learn anything from here...http://www.starquestclub.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=109134&view=&hl=strut&fromsearch=1 I had a dodge neon braze the the holes lined up on two bolts. I dont have it anymore. I have this stuff thay was east to get the most expensive part was the water jet cutting for the weld plates but still that was cheapwater jet cut strut aluminum tower plates for welding brackets onto. i mocked em up from cardboard until the where 100% perfecthttp://img823.imageshack.us/img823/5082/towerplates.th.jpgmade to be bolted on here at the back on the strut tower to clear the throttle bodyhttp://img560.imageshack.us/img560/9981/towerplate3.th.jpghttp://img703.imageshack.us/img703/9981/strutbarbracketpeice.th.jpghttp://img9.imageshack.us/img9/8049/towerplate2.th.jpgcould also go like thishttp://img573.imageshack.us/img573/4913/diytowerplate1.th.jpgi have three like this one. i mocked this all up and it looks good but i need to weld brackets to the strut tower plateshttp://img44.imageshack.us/img44/8594/ebaystyletowerbrace.th.jpg Edited January 18, 2011 by JohnnyWadd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patra_is_here Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 oh man i forgot about that thread. did you ever come up with an accurate proof of why one needs a strut tower brace on an SQ or were you still going off the famous butt dyno and hearsay from the days of yore?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyWadd Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 (edited) oh man i forgot about that thread. did you ever come up with an accurate proof of why one needs a strut tower brace on an SQ or were you still going off the famous butt dyno and hearsay from the days of yore?. I'd rather keep it on topic becuase i think its a realy cool idea to use an of the shelf item from another car. If you want to keep your crusade against strut tower braces going just go back to that thread. So many people chimed in about how there car drove better with the brace. How can i prove the we "NEED" the brace? Days of yore ? lol @ you. Anyway here is a 1989 cusco brace for a Acura Integra...little massaging of the end peices and it would bolt on and clear the hood and intakehttp://img16.imageshack.us/img16/7848/rocky4jeff053.th.jpgThese are on ebay for about $18.00 shipped and they actually list the length, bomz racing sells them. http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/3726/83starion.th.jpgHere is what i had in mind with those plates i had made.http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/1943/p2090012wx6.th.jpg mock up...http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/1429/aussiepics006rj4.th.jpghttp://img72.imageshack.us/img72/1792/aussiepics005gn6.th.jpg rear...http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/2312/aussiepics003ti7.th.jpg Edited January 18, 2011 by JohnnyWadd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyWadd Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 Dug up some pictures of the dodge neon one..Its within milimeters of being an exact match for my old S&M brace..http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/817/radhose010dm3.th.jpghttp://img217.imageshack.us/img217/1999/radhose009av5.th.jpghttp://img217.imageshack.us/img217/4310/radhose008al6.th.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foreverzero Posted January 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2011 i think you can still get a cusco bar, its just a pain ordering it and takes some time to get. others will certainly know more on this subject. the mk1's bar is not adjustable, big deal to some and not to others. the s&m bars were the nicest offered in my opinion and actually had 3 bars instead of one. unfortunately, they are no longer being made. Yeah I see the cusco bars pretty rarely and I'm sure like you said it'd be a pain in the tail at the end of the day. I'd gladly go after one of the S&M tri-bars if I could find one, linking the strut towers to the firewall seemed pretty legit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foreverzero Posted January 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2011 i know this is off topic, and you don't have to answer, but what do you need a strut bar for? Well by no means do I *NEED* a strut bar but I'm not really in the market to spend 300+ on sway bars right now. Besides I'd rather do that in the summer when I can also do poly bushings. I know strut bars are often seen as frivolous and unnecessary in a lot of cars, however, in the two cars that I've personally had them in I absolutely noticed a difference. (MA70 supra & FC3S rx-7). It wasn't night and day, holy s***-kind of difference but it was completely sufficient for the 100 bucks I spent. Not only that but if this is successful then you can have bars from companies that never made bars for our cars. Mines, Carbing, Greddy (Grex, Trust, etc). Yes I'm a total slut for companies like Mines, etc. Johnny thanks so much for all the pics and insight man I appreciate it. What generation of neon are the pictured bars from? If you wouldn't mind pulling out a tape measure, do you know what the length and height of them were? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyWadd Posted January 19, 2011 Report Share Posted January 19, 2011 the neon one was for a 2004 neon srt-4. i dont have that one. i still have the other ones.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Convette Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 (edited) I really like where this is going an am also in the middle of desiging my own. However I don't like the little 2 bolt top plates. I think it would be better if it were bolted under all three bolts. It just looks stronger that way. Heres what I was thinkning. This will only work on my car unfortunaly, but you can see where I'm going with it. An Patra- if they did nothing they wouldn't be on OEM cars would they? http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w239/johnboy9788/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG0026_1295537572502.jpg Edited January 20, 2011 by Convette Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patra_is_here Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 (edited) Patra- if they did nothing they wouldn't be on OEM cars would they? john, im not saying they don't do anything for all cars. lets say a manufacturer realized they could save $100 per car in manufacturing time by making the strut towers single layer steel with spot welds and all they had to do to make up for the weaker design was add a $25 strut tower brace. which is suspect is the reason you see it on factory cars, because in the end it saved costs. my point is that cars that have thin load bearing strut towers with no sort of strength tying in to the rest of the chassis, then sure, they will help. but the SQ has a massive subframe, and incredible heavy shock towers that are tied in to the firewall and inner fender cores. i know you have a background in some engineering, so do me a favor and draw a free body diagram and try to figure out how compressional or expansive load is going to get transferred to the towers. the struts carry a primarily vertical load with only a smaller component of load going side to side. i once hit a curb sideways in my car. bent the rim, sheered the tie rod, and crushed the control arm. but it didn't move the shock tower. so, imagine a curb being the same as a tire with infinite lateral grip. at that point the loads were so high that the weaker items broke, while the towers are in the exact same position. and, another example to shoot down the "if manufactures do it it must be good" would be the miata M. the miata M has a strut tower brace, even though ALL the load is carried by a separate chassis subframe. ALL the load. there's literally now load going to the towers yet they put a strut tower brace on there. Edited January 20, 2011 by patra_is_here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technology Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 Someone take off their hood, tie a string tight between the two strut towers and turn some corners fast. Watch the string and report back! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasTieaga Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 Someone take off their hood, tie a string tight between the two strut towers and turn some corners fast. Watch the string and report back! Yet another genius thought in science. Hopefully it will kill the great debate and this man will either move forward with the brace or just save his money to put forth into the rest of his stance modding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyWadd Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 (edited) i once hit a curb sideways in my car. bent the rim Congatulations!! john, im not saying they don't do anything for all cars. but the SQ has a massive subframe, and incredible heavy shock towers that are tied in to the firewall and inner fender cores. Strike one..Right. All that weight acting on the car (is not just about the force of the tires) so here goes all that weight into a corner, and is the road perfectly flat (no) is the corner a perfect radius (no) so it tries to literaly change shape. You act like if the car is heavy that means its stiff. It means lots of stuff. Have you ever had a sunroof car in the winter and left in the cold morning with ice on the sunroof? Chassis flex makes is crack and pop as you drive, And thats without the tires breaking free or the wheels bending or any of that. Yet another genius thought in science. Hopefully it will kill the great debate and this man will either move forward with the brace or just save his money to put forth into the rest of his stance modding. I cant tell if thats sarcasm or ? I thought it was a good idea. Tie the string real tight see if it breaks or watch is go loose.. I dont think parta is moving on he is a highly decidated truly motivated strut bar hater. LOL Strike two.. lets say a manufacturer realized they could save $100 per car in manufacturing time by making the strut towers single layer steel with spot welds and all they had to do to make up for the weaker design was add a $25 strut tower brace. which is suspect is the reason you see it on factory cars, because in the end it saved costs. Lets "SAY"? Seriousy? Lets say you are pulling stuff out of thin air, that would be more accurate. the struts carry a primarily vertical load with only a smaller component of load going side to side. i once hit a curb sideways in my car. bent the rim, sheered the tie rod, and crushed the control arm. but it didn't move the shock tower. so, imagine a curb being the same as a tire with infinite lateral grip. at that point the loads were so high that the weaker items broke, while the towers are in the exact same position. Oh it did not move the shock tower, Its in the exact same position? Of course, it flexes, the brace reduces flex. You can do all sorts of damage without actually permantly bending the shock tower. Okay one more try...lets see what you got... Strike threeNow back to another episode of making stuff up thats fake, with your host Patra.. i know you have a background in some engineering, so do me a favor and draw a free body diagram and try to figure out how compressional or expansive load is going to get transferred to the towers. the struts carry a primarily vertical load with only a smaller component of load going side to side. No. sorry champ. Ever read a book on suspension and how it works when you go through corners, stop, brake, or accelerate? Weight shift. Ever watch a car topple over on its side without breaking the tires loose or bending wheels? Happens. Put on a backpack full of suspension books from the library, now go running and turn a corner real fast, now run faster and try to stop and turn all at once, then quick just keep running? Even if you just had one (get two or three bro) book in there the backpack would be all over the place...heavier backpack = more weight shift.Wonder why vehicles have shocks tilted in like this/\ and not like this\/? (And no it not to save money or shorter shocks) Weight shift/Body roll does not happen in a straight up and down motion. I wonder how come when i fly through a corner, Why does my body wanna go sideways and not smash straight up against the roof? Lateral force buddy like um alot of it and all. Vertical load LMAO!! Edited January 21, 2011 by JohnnyWadd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyWadd Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 I one time overtightened my lugs nuts to 100 foot pounds and the struts tower did not break. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasTieaga Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 Congatulations!! Strike one..Right. All that weight acting on the car (is not just about the force of the tires) so here goes all that weight into a corner, and is the road perfectly flat (no) is the corner a perfect radius (no) so it tries to literaly change shape. You act like if the car is heavy that means its stiff. It means lots of stuff. Have you ever had a sunroof car in the winter and left in the cold morning with ice on the sunroof? Chassis flex makes is crack and pop as you drive, And thats without the tires breaking free or the wheels bending or any of that. I cant tell if thats sarcasm or ? I thought it was a good idea. Tie the string real tight see if it breaks or watch is go loose.. I dont think parta is moving on he is a highly decidated truly motivated strut bar hater. LOL Strike two.. Lets "SAY"? Seriousy? Lets say you are pulling stuff out of thin air, that would be more accurate. Oh it did not move the shock tower, Its in the exact same position? Of course, it flexes, the brace reduces flex. You can do all sorts of damage without actually permantly bending the shock tower. Okay one more try...lets see what you got... Strike threeNow back to another episode of making stuff up thats fake, with your host Patra.. No. sorry champ. Ever read a book on suspension and how it works when you go through corners, stop, brake, or accelerate? Weight shift. Ever watch a car topple over on its side without breaking the tires loose or bending wheels? Happens. Put on a backpack full of suspension books from the library, now go running and turn a corner real fast, now run faster and try to stop and turn all at once, then quick just keep running? Even if you just had one (get two or three bro) book in there the backpack would be all over the place...heavier backpack = more weight shift.Wonder why vehicles have shocks tilted in like this/\ and not like this\/? (And no it not to save money or shorter shocks) Weight shift/Body roll does not happen in a straight up and down motion. I wonder how come when i fly through a corner, Why does my body wanna go sideways and not smash straight up against the roof? Lateral force buddy like um alot of it and all. Vertical load LMAO!! Well, I have a nice understanding of physics in a general sense and I know how chassis flex works. I'm 100% positive the string will show signs of movement. Not to mention after 20+ years the chassis is no where as stiff as it once was. I've always been pro strut bar. Tell NASCAR they can stop trying to save a couple $100 on their million dollar cars though because they don't need the strut bar. Oh, and Lamborgini and Ferrari and all those other top end manufacturers should stop using them too because they actually do nothing. That fancy brace over the engine of the R8? Just decoration to make the car look tight dawg. There's really no real world application for stiffening certain parts of the car. It just makes the owner of the car look cool by having something there. (that last part is sarcasm btw) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foreverzero Posted January 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 I really like where this is going an am also in the middle of desiging my own. However I don't like the little 2 bolt top plates. I think it would be better if it were bolted under all three bolts. It just looks stronger that way. Heres what I was thinkning. This will only work on my car unfortunaly, but you can see where I'm going with it. An Patra- if they did nothing they wouldn't be on OEM cars would they? http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w239/johnboy9788/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG0026_1295537572502.jpg Hmm this girl got derailed a little quickly. My goal is not to persuade any person or party that a front strut bar is needed or beneficial to any particular application. I simply have had good, personal, results in the past and am intrigued by the prospect of modifying vintage jdm bars to suit my purpose. I mean it could and has been argued as a waste of money but that seems a little arbitrary when many in our community would spend the same $ on 86 door handles, oem louvers, oem mudflaps, etc. (Not that any of those are what I would call a *waste* of money) In the end, I don't really think most of us care what another owner does to their car, they simply don't' want their views or principles discredited. That being said, I just wanted to get some data and opinions. John, I absolutely agree. It always seemed more effective, not to mention structurally sound, to mount the plates at all 3 holes. What kind of metal are you using on yours? lol btw I've been a long time lurker on your buildup thread. Absolutely stunning from top to bottom. Truly one of a kind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Convette Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 (edited) john, im not saying they don't do anything for all cars. lets say a manufacturer realized they could save $100 per car in manufacturing time by making the strut towers single layer steel with spot welds and all they had to do to make up for the weaker design was add a $25 strut tower brace. which is suspect is the reason you see it on factory cars, because in the end it saved costs. my point is that cars that have thin load bearing strut towers with no sort of strength tying in to the rest of the chassis, then sure, they will help. but the SQ has a massive subframe, and incredible heavy shock towers that are tied in to the firewall and inner fender cores. i know you have a background in some engineering, so do me a favor and draw a free body diagram and try to figure out how compressional or expansive load is going to get transferred to the towers. the struts carry a primarily vertical load with only a smaller component of load going side to side. i once hit a curb sideways in my car. bent the rim, sheered the tie rod, and crushed the control arm. but it didn't move the shock tower. so, imagine a curb being the same as a tire with infinite lateral grip. at that point the loads were so high that the weaker items broke, while the towers are in the exact same position. and, another example to shoot down the "if manufactures do it it must be good" would be the miata M. the miata M has a strut tower brace, even though ALL the load is carried by a separate chassis subframe. ALL the load. there's literally now load going to the towers yet they put a strut tower brace on there. I'm not going to argue if they do anything or not. The strut towers are made out of paper thin material due to the amount of draw when the metal was stamped. Even with the cage I have in my car, it still flexes, everything does. Why would most race cars have the cage continue to the strut tower through the fire wall, then to frame? Rasing your strut towers to gain a 1" drop could also be looked at as a waste of time, and performance gain of nothing other than "seat of the pants-o-meter".Also, I'm not really concerended with wasting money, or "putting that money somewhere else", cause simply money's been put everywhere else. Hmm this girl got derailed a little quickly. My goal is not to persuade any person or party that a front strut bar is needed or beneficial to any particular application. I simply have had good, personal, results in the past and am intrigued by the prospect of modifying vintage jdm bars to suit my purpose. I mean it could and has been argued as a waste of money but that seems a little arbitrary when many in our community would spend the same $ on 86 door handles, oem louvers, oem mudflaps, etc. (Not that any of those are what I would call a *waste* of money) In the end, I don't really think most of us care what another owner does to their car, they simply don't' want their views or principles discredited. That being said, I just wanted to get some data and opinions. word. John, I absolutely agree. It always seemed more effective, not to mention structurally sound, to mount the plates at all 3 holes. What kind of metal are you using on yours? lol btw I've been a long time lurker on your buildup thread. Absolutely stunning from top to bottom. Truly one of a kind.Thanks man this car is a disease. lol Anyways, if I felt like wasting the money, I would have them cnc'd out of a solid piece of high grade aluminium, but I'll prolly just use some cold rolled steel, so I can do the welding my self, and have the pieces laser cut. I was planning on making the center section out of the same material as my rad support only boxed aluminium, but after seeing how cheap you can get bars for on ebay I might go that route. Good find. Edited January 21, 2011 by Convette Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patra_is_here Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 you guys are probably right. I enjoying the debate though. also, the string theory (lol) isn't going to work, because we all know that the cars do have some axial twist down the centerline, and during that twist the distance between the towers will change. strut bars don't really help with twist though, so it's not a fair comparison. i guess my whole thesis lays on the grounds that the tower brace is suppose to help performance, and that i really don't see how enough load is going to get transferred to the towers in a way that's going to compress or expand the towers in any amount that would have a negative effect on handling. or, a better way to tackle this debate is maybe answer this: what is the gain of strut tower braces on an SQ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyWadd Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 Now how can there be axial twist and how can the distance between the towers change if there is only vertical force? Contradicts your previous arguement. But you did answer your own question at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patra_is_here Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 dude, axial twist along the center axis would be because of vertical forces. not a contradiction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyWadd Posted January 22, 2011 Report Share Posted January 22, 2011 dude, axial twist along the center axis would be because of vertical forces. not a contradiction. You contradict yourself many times. I dont have time to co grab your stuff and quote it right now. You now admitt the distance between the tower wil change. Locking the towers together will reduce all flex. Its stopping the car from being able to change shape. Heres is a quick example for you since you love softpipes, If you filled a softpipe with water and had it capped off then tried to twist or bend it it would be much harder for any sort of bend you could try...and that because the internal shape is changing and trying to compress the water. Axial twist is not some perfect linear thing built into out cars that only exist on one plane. What is this center axis you are talking about? Do you even know or did you make that up too? So the towers are like this solid cast iron idependant stationary thing and its the center axis that is the flex? Is that what you mean? Is there a roller bearing rod down the center of the car? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patra_is_here Posted January 22, 2011 Report Share Posted January 22, 2011 (edited) the only reason i mentioned "center" was to ensure people knew which axis i was referring to when describing twist. i guess i could have called it a lengthwise twist if that helps. and really, you get 'lengthwise' twist when the front and rear are experiencing axial loads that are highly unequal from each other. since the strut brace is non-triangulated in the plane that is vertical and left to right, the strut bar isn't going to stop twist in that plane. but we already know that. so if it's not helping twist, and only helping keep the distance between them the same, but not keeping the relationship between them the same (as in a twist where the distance between them stays the same), then what good is it doing? if there is a twist, then the heights of the towers would change in relationship between them, so even if the distance between them is unchanging, it doesn't matter. no matter how you look at it, it's a pointless modification as far as i see it. i'm curious as to your educational background. not as a personal attack or such, but i would like to know your understanding of these systems so I will know the best way to convey certain concepts to you. here's my background:(college level)multivariate calculusengineering staticsengineering dynamiccalculus base physics (kinetics, as well as E&M and quantum) two years of working at a shop that set up race cars, raced cars, built race cars, and twas the regional inspection shop for NASA and HPDE. do you know how to calculate load using vectors? do you know how to create a free body diagram? I've spent so much class time doing this crap that i can just visualize it, but the hard part is explaining it to people, especially in text. but at this point, especially after your "roller bearing" comment, I feel that we're not going to have a beneficial discussion. all you do is pick apart my explanation and find subjective contradictions. if you really want to prove their benefit to me. 1. show me where the loads come from2. show that it's problematic Edited January 22, 2011 by patra_is_here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyWadd Posted January 22, 2011 Report Share Posted January 22, 2011 (edited) I didnt ask about your background. I asked if you ever read on book on suspension systems. So you worked at a shop, so what? no matter how you look at it, it's a pointless modification as far as i see it.Yep, as far as you see it, that says alot about you. And how are you seeing it, if i am looking at it?If you cannot at least admitt to some level of usefullness of the strut brace then that tells us... 1) You better get your money back from the educators that taught you all that quantum whatever it is. And 2) You must have no real world experience, wich tells me you where likely a pencil/broom pusher at that shop you worked at. I dont need to prove anything to you, If i did you would write if of as some vector miscalculation across the vertical cross vector or some ridiculous thing like that.How about you prove they dont help? LOL Is your education automotive based? Sounds like engineering that is related to buildings. I've spent so much class time doing this crap that i can just visualize it, but the hard part is explaining it to people, especially in text. Exactly my point,your a pretentious brainiac, and your driving expeirience is what? i once hit a curb sideways in my car. bent the rim, sheered the tie rod, and crushed the control arm. but at this point, especially after your "roller bearing" comment That was an exsagerated mock of your and you whole act of the strut tower being so solid and that it only has vertical force and minimal sideforce. Wich brings me back to.. i know you have a background in some engineering, so do me a favor and draw a free body diagram and try to figure out how compressional or expansive load is going to get transferred to the towers. the struts carry a primarily vertical load with only a smaller component of load going side to side. So you want a drawed out diagram? How about just driving the car? Sure the towers are stiff but what about all the sheet metal in between? And why dont you draw us the diagram if your so smart? I feel that we're not going to have a beneficial discussion. all you do is pick apart my explanation and find subjective contradictions.Well you make it so easy sorry thats just how it is. I dont wanna discuss load vectors or diagrams, or be baited into needing to prove they dont work or dont help. I already know they do. Its a simple fact not needing any special college education. Real world experience and anecdotal knowledge. (fancy word means evidence based on observation or word of mouth rather that scientific analysis) Edited January 22, 2011 by JohnnyWadd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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