Turbo upgrade -- 16g

[hippynerd]

So, I am working on building a 16g to fit in the 1986 starion. Its mostly stock, but the motor has the bsek, jvek, and I did the lo-buck fcd. I burned up a couple old worn out 12a turbos, and am in the process of building a 16g.

 

The intake side is different, but I have that end worked out, the exhaust side of these turbos are for 63/64 motors, so the exhaust points up instead of down, and the wastegates are different.

 

I have 3 hot sides, 2 have downpipe headers, one is setup for external wastegate, the other has a nice wastegate tube that bypasses the o2 bung (which is a little buggerd up.).

 

Heres a picture with the 3 16g and 12a housings i have.

 

https://picasaweb.go...feat=directlink

Im wondering if there is an easy way to use these? or make/buy a downpipe for this?

 

Maybe getting a different hotside would be better?

 

or maybe modifying my 12a hotside to take a 16g chra?

 

The 2 header ones are pretty impressive, but maybe more suitable for someone elses setup, this is near stock.

Edited June 6, 2012 by nerdbouy

[Frenchi934]

most people just run the stock turbine side and CHRA and just run a milled out 12a compressor housing with a 16g wheel in it.

[hippynerd]

12a cartridge, 12a exhaust, 16g compressor wheel, 12a compressor housing machined to fit 16 wheel ?

 

Does that make it a 16a?

[hippynerd]

I wondering if I can pull my 12a chra from my 83, then take the exhaust wheel out, and rebuild the 16g with the 12a exhaust wheel. Then I wont have any machine work. I have a fitting that adapts to a hose for the 16g compressor housing.

 

It seems that should all bolt up.

[natallica]

Just a word of advice. Check your P's & Q's during this. If something isn't right, stop and make it right. Or you could face this...

 

http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff408/n8tallica1/DSC01989.jpg http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff408/n8tallica1/DSC01987.jpg http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff408/n8tallica1/DSC01990.jpg

 

Be sure to have it balance before installing too, or it could detonate. Seems easy to rebuild one, but it can go south quick when something is awry!

 

-N8

[hippynerd]

I dont plan on balancing anything, the individual components should be balanced. I have a couple 12a's that look worse than that!

 

Is that damage from not cleaning the piston ring like seal that goes in there?

 

 

So, after going through the CHRAs that I have, I bought 2 off a fellow starquester here, and one off a guy on craigslist.

 

It look I may have a 16G, 20g, and a super 16g. The 16g wheels are about 2.5" in diameter the 20g is over 2.5", the super 16g has all flush fins instead of one high, one low like the other wheels.

 

I put a 16g together with the 12a exhaust wheel from my 83 starion, I used the better of the part that I have (Im waiting for a rebuild kit to arrive...), and I tried mocking it up on the car, but found that I will have a problem with the the housing setups that I have. I may be able to figure something out, but it will be tricky.

 

I can get it all hooked up, but the wastegate wont hook up. I may be able to make a bracket or something, not sure... id rather do that than spend more money right now.

[Skullzaflare]

I dont plan on balancing anything, the individual components should be balanced. I have a couple 12a's that look worse than that!

 

Is that damage from not cleaning the piston ring like seal that goes in there?

 

 

So, after going through the CHRAs that I have, I bought 2 off a fellow starquester here, and one off a guy on craigslist.

 

It look I may have a 16G, 20g, and a super 16g. The 16g wheels are about 2.5" in diameter the 20g is over 2.5", the super 16g has all flush fins instead of one high, one low like the other wheels.

 

I put a 16g together with the 12a exhaust wheel from my 83 starion, I used the better of the part that I have (Im waiting for a rebuild kit to arrive...), and I tried mocking it up on the car, but found that I will have a problem with the the housing setups that I have. I may be able to figure something out, but it will be tricky.

 

I can get it all hooked up, but the wastegate wont hook up. I may be able to make a bracket or something, not sure... id rather do that than spend more money right now.

the 2 you got from me are standard tdo5h 16g's

if all the fins are the same height on another you got, that is a eclipse 14b most likely, super16g has a bigger compressor housing

 

also, yes, the parts are balanced individually

Edited June 7, 2012 by Skullzaflare

[hippynerd]

Hey Skullz

I think you may have sent me a 20g instead of the 16g.

One of them has a much larger compressor wheel. both are the same style fins, but one is actually much bigger than the other.

 

The one I got from craigslist has the same size wheel as the smaller one I got from you, but its a different fin syle (non-stagared, and taller i think).

 

They all should fit in my 12a housings, but for some reason, they do not (it turns out the big one actually fits in my exhaust housings, but not the others).

 

I only tried a very old exhaust hosing, not the ones that are actually on my cars, so I guess I better test on those housings just to be certain, but my guess is something is slightly different. TD05 vs TD05h ? They almost fit, but not quite.

 

I'll see if I can get some better pictures, its looking rather rainy, so hard to get good pix.

 

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/YJ1Eb6dmY4dVRyoYdpAiZYL16hXzI0EYTc6k0X_ZNKA?feat=directlink

on the right is the turbo I got on craigslist, he called it a big 16g. On the left is the larger of the 2 turbos I got from Skullz.

Edited June 7, 2012 by nerdbouy

[Skullzaflare]

Hey Skullz

I think you may have sent me a 20g instead of the 16g.

One of them has a much larger compressor wheel. both are the same style fins, but one is actually much bigger than the other.

 

The one I got from craigslist has the same size wheel as the smaller one I got from you, but its a different fin syle (non-stagared, and taller i think).

 

They all should fit in my 12a housings, but for some reason, they do not (it turns out the big one actually fits in my exhaust housings, but not the others).

 

I only tried a very old exhaust hosing, not the ones that are actually on my cars, so I guess I better test on those housings just to be certain, but my guess is something is slightly different. TD05 vs TD05h ? They almost fit, but not quite.

 

I'll see if I can get some better pictures, its looking rather rainy, so hard to get good pix.

 

https://picasaweb.go...feat=directlink

on the right is the turbo I got on craigslist, he called it a big 16g. On the left is the larger of the 2 turbos I got from Skullz.

the one on the right is a stock 14b off a eclipse/talon

thats also a 16g on the left

 

you can run the numbers stamped on the front of the compressor housing

[hippynerd]

hrm.. ok, so, it looks like the housing for the one on the right is a 14b. The housing for the one on the left is a big 16g.

 

Further investigation and measuring leads me to believe that I have a Big 16G, regular 16g, and that one I got from craigslist is most likely a 14b like the housing id leads one to believe.

 

I also fitted the CHRAs to the 86 starion, and the 16gs fit fine, the 14b doesnt. The only real issue getting this to work seem to be the compressor output/wastegate or getting my 12a housings cut to 16g/big16g. has anyone bored a tc01 compressor housing to a big 16g?

 

For those playing along at home, here are some links I recently found interesting:

 

http://starion.mrbdesign.com.au/turbos.html

 

http://www.ehow.com/how_7957200_identify-mhi-16g-turbo.html

 

http://www.starquestclub.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=28062

Edited June 8, 2012 by nerdbouy

[Skullzaflare]

hrm.. ok, so, it looks like the housing for the one on the right is a 14b. The housing for the one on the left is a big 16g.

 

Further investigation and measuring leads me to believe that I have a Big 16G, regular 16g, and that one I got from craigslist is most likely a 14b like the housing id leads one to believe.

 

I also fitted the CHRAs to the 86 starion, and the 16gs fit fine, the 14b doesnt. The only real issue getting this to work seem to be the compressor output/wastegate or getting my 12a housings cut to 16g/big16g. has anyone bored a tc01 compressor housing to a big 16g?

yea it can be bored to a 16g, not enough metal to be bored to a 20g however, 16g is the limit

[hippynerd]

I've rebuilt the 16g's I used the kit on the Big16G, and the best of my other parts to rebuild the small 16g. Both exhaust wheels are kinda worn on the exhaust side bearings.

 

I used break in lube when rebuilding, just a thin coat on the moving bits.

 

The turbo with the new parts feels a bit tight, it doesnt spin as freely as the other one.

[Skullzaflare]

I've rebuilt the 16g's I used the kit on the Big16G, and the best of my other parts to rebuild the small 16g. Both exhaust wheels are kinda worn on the exhaust side bearings.

 

I used break in lube when rebuilding, just a thin coat on the moving bits.

 

The turbo with the new parts feels a bit tight, it doesnt spin as freely as the other one.

it shouldnt take to much effort to spin, be sure when you assemble it, you put thick coats of oil on the bearings and shaft, so its not completely dry started

[hippynerd]

I used break-in lube, I figure it will last till the oil get there. I may run some oil in it and see if it spins better. I havnt gotten my intake plumbing figured out yet anyway. damn rain

[hippynerd]

I took the big 16g apart, and checked things out, put it back together, still seems tight. it barely spins after letting go when spinning by hand, maybe 1 revolution.

I fitted the small 16g to the car with the housing that came with it. I used some parts that skulls included with his turbos. Its kinda crazy, but seems to work

 

https://picasaweb.go...feat=directlink

Above, you can see the wastegate setup. I put a intake stud in one of the wastegate mounting bolts, then put a bunch of washers for spacing to get tension on the gate.

 

https://picasaweb.go...feat=directlink

Here you can see how the compressor output is underneath, instead of the normal intercooled clocking. The output is actually resting against the oil return tube, if the tube wasnt there, i would have turned it a bit further, but this worked.

 

Right now, i have a piece of pvc plumbing joining the couler and IC pipe, I have to get a small piece of 2" metal tubing to replace before I can really clamp it down good. It might endup a good spot to plumb in a valve.

https://picasaweb.go...feat=directlink

 

 

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/1oK6rXoH_9m6Za6-gwlMhIL16hXzI0EYTc6k0X_ZNKA?feat=directlink

Heres a closeup of a s16g in a b16g housing. you can see the difference in opening size.

Edited June 10, 2012 by nerdbouy

[hippynerd]

I've rebuilt these turbos a few time, using my various spare parts, and There seems to be a difference in exhaust wheels. a couple of my wheels wont fit in the stock exhaust housing (12a-td05, 080) I have some housings probably from a dsm, they point the exhaust up, instead of down, and the housing says 070, and those wheels fit just fine in the dsm style 070 housings.

 

Is there an easy way to make them work in 080 housings. Is there a good, inexpensive source for the right exhaust wheels.

 

I've been considering trying the dsm housings, but it Id have to take the hood off to drive it.

[hippynerd]

LOL, I just realized, skulls sold me a 14g, and a 16g, not 2 16gs. I just tried to rebuild one last night, and the kit I ordered was way too big (I think it maybe a TD06.) Things havnt worked out too well for me, but I do have a working turbo.

[StarquestRescue]

The bigger exhaust turbine is likely a td05h. Stock starquest turbines are td05. Stock dsm's td05h. New 05's turbines are not available. But the 05h is. The china bay $200 dsm turbos use a bigger diameter shaft and every thing is a little different to avoid Mistu getting there lawyers after them. There is a rebuild kit with the bigger diameter bearings for the knock off turbo's. It is a bad practice to mix parts from different kits as the total height of the assembly may not be correct. Edited June 22, 2012 by StarquestRescue

[hippynerd]

Thanks for the details, and good info.

 

I'd like to experiment with the 070 housings I have, but they point up, and will require me to keep the hood off the car, and its still raining in oregon.

 

If I can figure out how to get an 070 housing on my car, and somehow get the exhaust hooked up, that would be ok too.

 

Sadly my 12a exhaust wheels are in terrible shape but a couple of the 05h wheels are not too bad.

 

I have 2 rebuild kits, one is just right, the other is wrong, 2 different kits from 2 different ebayers. They both say TD05, I assumed it was misabled, but maybe its for the cheap knock off turbos?

 

I need to get some calipers, and a bigger mic.

[Skullzaflare]

LOL, I just realized, skulls sold me a 14g, and a 16g, not 2 16gs. I just tried to rebuild one last night, and the kit I ordered was way too big (I think it maybe a TD06.) Things havnt worked out too well for me, but I do have a working turbo.

i believe your are mixing up the 2 i sent you with the 1 you got off craigs, the 2 i sent you were identical, all 3 cold sides were on the fully assembled turbo at one time.

seems the kit you got is for td06 since td06 uses a bigger bearing shaft

Thanks for the details, and good info.

 

I'd like to experiment with the 070 housings I have, but they point up, and will require me to keep the hood off the car, and its still raining in oregon.

 

If I can figure out how to get an 070 housing on my car, and somehow get the exhaust hooked up, that would be ok too.

 

Sadly my 12a exhaust wheels are in terrible shape but a couple of the 05h wheels are not too bad.

 

I have 2 rebuild kits, one is just right, the other is wrong, 2 different kits from 2 different ebayers. They both say TD05, I assumed it was misabled, but maybe its for the cheap knock off turbos?

 

I need to get some calipers, and a bigger mic.

you can have a machine shop mill out the stock hot side for the td05h, or use a 12a hotside wheel in the 16g when you rebuild it

td06 uses a bigger shaft, they sent you the wrong kit

[hippynerd]

Hey skullz, thanks for chiming in.

The kit says td05, td05h, td06, td06slc. I havnt been able to find specs on the shaft size for these (most of the parts should also fit a TC05, as it has the same shaft, but different journal bearing).

I found specs on some turbos here:

 

http://fc3spro.com/TECH/TURBO/tmodels.html

It looks like td05 and td05h are very close, so not a lot of machining.

Ive been using the 12a wheels, but machining the 05 housing to 05h would make it easier to put new turbos on this car. Not a bad idea... thanks!

 

Right now I have the big turbo in the car (got it in just before the rain hit again, but its going to be monday before I can work on it again.)

 

I have the smaller of the compressor wheels, and Im positive that the wheels I got from you were G wheels, the one I got from craigs had the B wheel.

Comparing the 2 compressor wheels:

B wheel, just over 2 1/4" OD. Flatback

G wheel, just under 2 3/8" (less than 1/8" larger, but larger)

 

When I put the big one back together, it was way too big to fit the other G wheel cartridge. The B and G wheels will probably both fit both cartridges. The big one (the one on my car now), will only fit the one cartridge.

 

You sent me 2 built(but ready for rebuilding) cartridges, 2 hotsides (one of which is setup for an awesome external wastegate, the other stock, both 070, a clipped wheel, turbo outlet mounting pipe, wastegate actuator thing). Those extra parts really did come in handy to get it to bolt up, so double thanks for that stuff You also sent 3 housings,

 

I've been in contact with the rebuild kit people, but they waited till 6pm friday to let me know to call them between monday and friday 8am-6pm.

 

If they do infact have the right kit, thats what i want, otherwise I may have to deal with refund nonsense.

 

The guy that sold me the 14b turbo says he made an honest mistake, he doesnt have my money, but offered a starion intercooler. sadly it would just take up space till i can get around to cooling the 83, which may never happen if I cant sell the 86.

 

This car is a lot of fun, but I miss my car. call me crazy if you want, but I think I like flattys better.

 

I had the smaller of the G wheels on my car for a week, I dont drive much, but I noticed that it was pretty laggy compared to the 12a, but around 3k rpm, it hit pretty hard, but then it was time to shift just about the time it started hitting.

I need to try the big turbo out, but I just havnt had any need to drive since putting it on the car. maybe I'll drive it today, maybe tomorrow...

[hippynerd]

So, according to the above specs, The 14b, and 16g are actually pretty close to the same size. The 16g is just under a 1/10th" bigger on both the inducer, and exducer.

 

So, it looks like the G wheel is a TD05h 16g, and the B wheel is a TD05h 14b.

 

 

The one in the car fits very nicely in a housing that says its a big 16g, and that wheel is obviously larger than either of these wheels. To my surprise, a big 16g has the same size (OD) wheel as an 18g or 20g, but the inlet side is different. I think (not sure) that the compressor housings I have 3 have really big inlets, the 14b is much thicker metal.

 

 

So, 16's and 14s are nearly the same size, but big 16s are much bigger, closer to 18s or 20's

Edited June 23, 2012 by nerdbouy