Engine not firing

[gribbs1469]

Ok ya'll I have a problem and i can't figure it out.I have a 1987 all stock widebody. I just rebuild the motor and installed it, hooked up all the lines, wires, etc. I have spark, I have fuel now I had to change the pump. checked the injectors, primary is firing. Checked and rechecked timing. The last thing i did was pulled the TB off the intake and there was a puddle of fuel in there. it was actually covering the whole bottom of the intake about a half inch deep. I had pulled the plugs about 10 times already to check for spark compression so on and there was no fuel on them. What would cause the fuel to sit in the intake and not go into the cylinder.

 

Thanks everyone for the help.

[chassispuke]

its an 87 u might have a bad knock box, common problem for 87,s

[ucw458]

Just a stab in the dark, your cam timing could be off, your distributor could be 180 degrees off and one of your injectors could be leaking.

 

 

Whatever it is, when you fix it change your oil. That much fuel dumped into the engine destroys the oils ability to lubricate parts.

[gribbs1469]

Also i forgot to mention car was sitting for 7-8 years before i got it.

 

Could a knock box go bad from sitting? I mean I am sure it can, anything can, but is that common.

 

its an 87 u might have a bad knock box, common problem for 87,s

Edited November 21, 2014 by gribbs1469

[gribbs1469]

I was thinking cam timing but i double and triple checked it. Even if the timing if off i shoukd have some sort of.firing I woukd imagine. It doesn't even want to try and start.

 

Just a stab in the dark, your cam timing could be off, your distributor could be 180 degrees off and one of your injectors could be leaking.

 

 

Whatever it is, when you fix it change your oil. That much fuel dumped into the engine destroys the oils ability to lubricate parts.

[scott87star]

Timing is likely the problem, if not the cam then the distributor, make sure the rotor is pointing at #1 at TDC with #1 on the compression stroke. Open the oil cap and visually look to see if the cam lobes are pointed down on #1 and that both slippers are on the base circle. You have to have the spark within about a 50 degree window out of 720 degrees of engine cycle. Its not hard to be off and then it won't fire at all. Once you do get it running the first thing is to set the timing via FSM instruction.

[gribbs1469]

Timing is likely the problem, if not the cam then the distributor, make sure the rotor is pointing at #1 at TDC with #1 on the compression stroke. Open the oil cap and visually look to see if the cam lobes are pointed down on #1 and that both slippers are on the base circle. You have to have the spark within about a 50 degree window out of 720 degrees of engine cycle. Its not hard to be off and then it won't fire at all. Once you do get it running the first thing is to set the timing via FSM instruction.

 

Alright i will check that again. I thought it was correct but between lack of light and frustration i could be wrong. Ill get back to you in a little bit with an update and let you know how it went.

 

Thanks again for you help.

[gribbs1469]

Got it running. The doll for the cam gear was not in the cam and it rotated so th cam timing was off...as soon as i adjusted that and got it set right it first on first crank.! but not it won't start again.

 

The battery is fully charged even with a jump it seems like it is dieing. I check the voltage drop while trying to start and it dropped to 10.8. I am assuming its the starter going bad, any ideas?

[gribbs1469]

It was a bad starter...it been running but now there is a ticking noise. it doesn't sound like a rod or piston. It sounds more like a rocker arm. I took the rockers out, bleed the lifters, put them back in, and sounds about the same if not worse. Everything I have read says it should knock louder while they pumping back up and it can take up to 20 minutes.

 

Oil pressure on the stock gauge reads under half while driving and 1/4 while stationary and at operating temp. I ordered a new oil pressure gauge bc i know they are s*** but its all i have to work with for the next few days.

 

There is a really big crack in the stock manifold and which is almost all the was around. I also read that this could be making the same sound as a rocker arm knock. It doesn't necessarily sound like it is coming from the exhaust tho.

 

Does anyone have any ideas?

[tsi_tom]

If you just rebuilt the motor you shouldn't have oil pressure that low. I rebuilt mine and it is 3/4 when cold and half when warm idling. When you bled the lifters did clean them and leave them spongy? I also replaced the balance shaft bearings.

[gribbs1469]

Yes i cleaned them and left them spongy. The motor didn't have balance shafts to begin with, previous owner deleted them, i stayed on that route and kept them eliminated.

[tsi_tom]

Post up a video of the engine running

[tsi_tom]

. Edited November 26, 2014 by tsi_tom

[gribbs1469]

ok well i got a link to the site, it wouldn't let me post it directly. Any help is appreciated! Do you think it could still be timing?

 

http://s1266.photobu...icr2fp.mp4.html

Edited November 27, 2014 by gribbs1469

[tsi_tom]

It sounds like lifter noise. Mine sounds like a sewing machine too. I will post a video of mine running tomorrow. iPhone didn't load it right. Edited November 27, 2014 by tsi_tom

[gribbs1469]

Alright thanks man! How to quite it? I have 3 sets, tried them all..like I said I bled these ones, I don't know what more to do.

[tsi_tom]

When you put the lifters back in did you put them in like this?

 

http://i1069.photobucket.com/albums/u467/tsi_tom/The%20Missouri%20Project/Motor%20Issue/papercliplifterholdingtool_zps44729d17.jpg

 

There it the possibility of getting aluminum shavings in the rocker shafts because the bolts that hold down the rocker assembly create a burr on the rocker shaft. This shouldn't be a problem if you didn't take the rockers apart. However if the motor spun a bearing previously then the shafts needs to be cleaned out along with the oil cooler.

http://www.starquest...opic=143667&hl=

 

Why did you rebuild the motor?

 

From my oil cooler:

 

http://i1069.photobucket.com/albums/u467/tsi_tom/The%20Missouri%20Project/Oil%20Cooler/debrisinpan4_zps21aec25e.jpg

 

My car starting. The knocking noise was caused by the balance shaft chain. Once I adjusted that the chain tensioner the knocking went away. This shouldn't be a problem for you as the engine doesn't have the balance shafts.

 

http://vid1069.photo...zpscf0edb19.mp4

 

When you get a used exhaust manifold have it shaved. Mine was slightly warped. Resurfaced manifold:

 

http://i1069.photobucket.com/albums/u467/tsi_tom/The%20Missouri%20Project/Back%20from%20the%20machine%20shop%203/ShavedExhaust3_zps5d1dcf59.jpg

 

I replaced my oil sender when I rebuilt the engine.

[Starfighterpilot]

Listening to your video, and noting what your oil pressure is running at, it sounds to me like those lifters aren't getting enough oil to pump up or that the oil weight isn't viscous enough or you have air in the engine oil system.

 

Since you had the fuel flooding issue have you changed the engine oil?

 

If so, what weight did you use? It should be 10W -40.

 

I'd suggest that you pull the crankcase oil pan off and check to see if your oil pick up tube & it's o-ring are properly seated in the oil pump case.

 

Did you use a genuine Mitsu oring for the oil pick up tube or the one that came in the engine rebuild gasket set.

 

Which oil pump mounting gasket did you use when you bolted the oil pump to the block? Take a picture of it & post it.

 

Did you replace the oil pump's pressure relief valve and it's spring? Did you also clean out the relief valve's cavity.

 

See this link for additional pictures of the oil pump, it's gasket, pressure relief valve and the correct Mitsu part numbers. http://starquest.i-x.net/viewtopic.php?t=913

 

For What It's Worth.

 

KEN

[gribbs1469]

When you put the lifters back in did you put them in like this?

 

http://i1069.photobucket.com/albums/u467/tsi_tom/The%20Missouri%20Project/Motor%20Issue/papercliplifterholdingtool_zps44729d17.jpg

 

There it the possibility of getting aluminum shavings in the rocker shafts because the bolts that hold down the rocker assembly create a burr on the rocker shaft. This shouldn't be a problem if you didn't take the rockers apart. However if the motor spun a bearing previously then the shafts needs to be cleaned out along with the oil cooler.

http://www.starquest...opic=143667&hl=

 

Why did you rebuild the motor?

 

From my oil cooler:

 

http://i1069.photobucket.com/albums/u467/tsi_tom/The%20Missouri%20Project/Oil%20Cooler/debrisinpan4_zps21aec25e.jpg

 

My car starting. The knocking noise was caused by the balance shaft chain. Once I adjusted that the chain tensioner the knocking went away. This shouldn't be a problem for you as the engine doesn't have the balance shafts.

 

http://vid1069.photo...zpscf0edb19.mp4

 

When you get a used exhaust manifold have it shaved. Mine was slightly warped. Resurfaced manifold:

 

http://i1069.photobucket.com/albums/u467/tsi_tom/The%20Missouri%20Project/Back%20from%20the%20machine%20shop%203/ShavedExhaust3_zps5d1dcf59.jpg

 

I replaced my oil sender when I rebuilt the engine.

 

Tom, the motor did spin a bearing, i sent the block out, had it honed and magnifluxed. When I brought it home to put together I clean clean clean it make sure all the oils and junk was gone.

 

The head wad not on the car wheni got it, i bouht it latet. It is a aus mandrel tep head. 100lb springs, oversize valves, Cam all that good stuff.

 

Also the motor I pulled out and rebuilt went into a completely different car. Oil cooler was good clean, all line were clean.

 

Manifold was off a different motor, but it's stock and has huge cracks in it. I didn't want to shave it bc I have a new one for my new turbo.

[gribbs1469]

Listening to your video, and noting what your oil pressure is running at, it sounds to me like those lifters aren't getting enough oil to pump up or that the oil weight isn't viscous enough or you have air in the engine oil system.

 

Since you had the fuel flooding issue have you changed the engine oil?

 

If so, what weight did you use? It should be 10W -40.

 

I'd suggest that you pull the crankcase oil pan off and check to see if your oil pick up tube & it's o-ring are properly seated in the oil pump case.

 

Did you use a genuine Mitsu oring for the oil pick up tube or the one that came in the engine rebuild gasket set.

 

Which oil pump mounting gasket did you use when you bolted the oil pump to the block? Take a picture of it & post it.

 

Did you replace the oil pump's pressure relief valve and it's spring? Did you also clean out the relief valve's cavity.

 

See this link for additional pictures of the oil pump, it's gasket, pressure relief valve and the correct Mitsu part numbers. http://starquest.i-x...topic.php?t=913

 

For What It's Worth.

 

KEN

 

Ken thanks for the reply

 

I did change my oil when i had all that gas in it. I am running 10-40, thats the same weight i was running before the fueling issue. When i drained the motor the oil was shimmery. There was one metal flake that i could see but it was small. The motor rebuilds I have done before and see have all had some sort of shimmer to the first oil change.

 

For the genuine Mitsu parts. unfortunately I did not them, I used the parts that came in the rebuild kit. Ill pull the pan when i get a chance and check the pickup. I made extra sure that it was seated when i put it in and tighten it down tho.

 

For the oil pump, I took it apart, cleaned it, got all the metal shavings and chunks out. The pump was brand new before the motor was blown and all the bearings and gears looked really good. No gouging on the bearings at all. I did not change out the relief valve parts either. I do not have a picture of the gasket i used, I made sure it was the correct one becasue it came with 2. I did not cover up and of the ports.

Edited November 27, 2014 by gribbs1469

[Starfighterpilot]

For the genuine Mitsu parts. unfortunately I did not them, I used the parts that came in the rebuild kit. Ill pull the pan when i get a chance and check the pickup. I made extra sure that it was seated when i put it in and tighten it down tho.

 

It has been known here on SQC, since Christ was a kid, that the aftermarket oil pick up tube orings are NOT the same as the MITSU OEM one. They are not as thick and allow air leakage into the oil pump pick up. I suggest that you get ahold of Randy (Dad) here on SQC and order the Mitsu oring. Here's Dad's link http://www.enginemachineservice.com/ems/conquest.php

 

For What It's Worth.

 

KEN

[gribbs1469]

I ordered the O-ring hopefully that fixes it. I am going to try and figure out other things until I get that piece in next week..

 

Thanks!

[tsi_tom]

Did he have the Mitsubishi o-ring? Last I checked they were NLA. I got mine from Jimmy on here.

[gribbs1469]

no it was not the genuine O-ring. It was a fel-pro, i figure that one is better then the one that came with my kit tho.

[gribbs1469]

OK so i changed the oil again, i forgot add before that i added seafoam for the noisy lifters...horrible idean pretty sure that was the problem. I put 20w50 oil in and it was looking and sounding great. I took a video upon first start up. Oil pressure is hanging around 80psi with new gauge and warmed up its hanging around 60 under load and 45-50 at idle. seems like it was that Seafoam. Thanks for all the help!

 

The noise on the video was before the lifters pumped back up, once they were pumped the sound was gone!

 

http://s1266.photobucket.com/user/gribbs1469/media/Starion/20141201_160536_zpslydgyquy.mp4.html

Edited December 2, 2014 by gribbs1469