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Serious bible question


ucw458
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Something I saw today made me curious. People say god is love and satan is bad. But,.... in the bible how many people did satan kill? How many people did god kill? I can't think of a single story involving satan killing someone. But I can think of stories where god laid waste to entire cities and civilizations. Seems kinda ironic to me. Can anyone think of a story involving satan killing someone?

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is a serious question. Please don't start fights. I really do want to read your answers to this question.

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Satan killed Job's family but they were resurrected ... so does that count? He was more of a manipulating force that convinced people to kill others.

 

Edit: You inspired me to hit google. Check this out

http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2006/08/who-has-killed-more-satan-or-god.html

Edited by psu_Crash
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I suppose that would count. Though I can't remember any god deaths that were rezurected. There's also alot of gods will killing in the bible like moses leading the jews into battle for the promise land. Something about if he held his arms up god would help them win and if he lowered his arms god would make them lose. Been a long time since sunday school. Edited by ucw458
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killing isn't the only form of evil.

 

can you kill and still be loving, just, and good? capital punishment comes to mind. So does war. Killing isn't always evil.

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killing isn't the only form of evil.

 

can you kill and still be loving, just, and good? capital punishment comes to mind. So does war. Killing isn't always evil.

 

 

Killing another person is never a good thing. Even when it's the only way to protect family and friends. You can still do it and be right in the eyes of the law and society but the after affects will stay with you for the rest of your life. It may be something you never get over completely. Would I kill to protect my family, yes without hesitation. But I still don't think it's a good thing. I just hope I never have to make that choice.

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I'm no theologist ... but I am well studied. Since your asking seriously, here's my serious answer: As a culture we tend to think of God and Satan as Good vs. Evil. Primarily because that's how many stories/movies are presented ... Harry Potter, Superman, X-men, Lord of the Rings, Star Wars etc. Basically, two equally opposite forces battling it out. But, if you believe that God is omnipotent (all-powerful) and that God created Satan (originally as one of His angles) and later threw him out of heaven, that means God has authority over Satan. This is demonstrated in the story of Job already mentioned where Satan had to ask God permission to harm Job. So, God doesn't "harm" anyone, Satan does. You could say though, that God does allow Satan to have His way with mankind - which has resulted in a lot of killing. If you read through Revelation, this is a temporary condition God has promised to correct in some future time. Unfortunately, it started back at the beginning because we (Adam and Eve) chose Satan's way over God's way in the garden. Actually, if you believe the garden story, God intended for mankind to live forever with him, so there would have been no death or any sickness or anything .... maybe even emission-free high horsepower cars :D .

 

Of course, if you don't think scripture has an ounce of credibility, everything above is arguable.

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Satan don't kill people, he manipulates some humans to kill others and do "bad" things

 

...amen :)

 

 

I don't buy that. That's playing the blame game. If you believe in god then you believe you were granted free will. You always have a choice. Saying the devil made me do it is BS.

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I'm no theologist ... but I am well studied. Since your asking seriously, here's my serious answer: As a culture we tend to think of God and Satan as Good vs. Evil. Primarily because that's how many stories/movies are presented ... Harry Potter, Superman, X-men, Lord of the Rings, Star Wars etc. Basically, two equally opposite forces battling it out. But, if you believe that God is omnipotent (all-powerful) and that God created Satan (originally as one of His angles) and later threw him out of heaven, that means God has authority over Satan. This is demonstrated in the story of Job already mentioned where Satan had to ask God permission to harm Job. So, God doesn't "harm" anyone, Satan does. You could say though, that God does allow Satan to have His way with mankind - which has resulted in a lot of killing. If you read through Revelation, this is a temporary condition God has promised to correct in some future time. Unfortunately, it started back at the beginning because we (Adam and Eve) chose Satan's way over God's way in the garden. Actually, if you believe the garden story, God intended for mankind to live forever with him, so there would have been no death or any sickness or anything .... maybe even emission-free high horsepower cars :D .

 

Of course, if you don't think scripture has an ounce of credibility, everything above is arguable.

 

That just goes back to the free will statement. You can't say the devil is making you do bad things because it's your choice to do it or not. In that regard you can't say satan caused anyone to be killed because it was their choice to do the deed.

 

But there are many examples of god personally killing in the bible.

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Killing another person is never a good thing. Even when it's the only way to protect family and friends.

 

 

True, but is that evil? Does it negate any love you have in your heart. If you did have to do that, would you be "bad"?

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You're right... I'm not saying the devil makes anyone do anything ... I think we're bent to do evil all our own. So in that regard, I agree with you, people have free will and make in-the-moment choices. I was just trying to point out that Satan can only "kill" with God's permission. It seems everyone in this discussion seems to be on the same page with that.

 

I also won't argue your other point - God has personally killed people, Sodom and Gomorrah is one example. God also struck dead a man who was carrying His very own Ark of the Covenant - but that's what makes Him God. If we could understand Him or control Him, He wouldn't be much of a God. I think you'd be hard pressed to find an example though where God killed people that were loving Him and serving Him in scritpure. Everyone that died did something in the eyes of God that was unjust. They say the fear of God leads to wisdom ... maybe we should all start being a little more afraid knowing what He can do.

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True, but is that evil? Does it negate any love you have in your heart. If you did have to do that, would you be "bad"?

 

In a one on one case it's a grey area. How will you feel about ending a life? How would your wife and kids feelings towards you change knowing you killed someone? Could they possibly develope a fear of you knowing you had killed? Could changes in your personality from killing affect or end your marriage? There is no one answer to your question.

 

 

Here's another example. Was no one else in soddam and gommorah able to change their ways? Was everyone there a bloodthirsty killer about to commit murder or was the whole city declared evil and wiped clean by god? And who got saved? Certainly not lots wife who looked back to see the destruction. Furthermore lot ended up getting drunk and fathering children with his daughters. Why was lot saved and no one else?

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I also won't argue your other point - God has personally killed people, Sodom and Gomorrah is one example. God also struck dead a man who was carrying His very own Ark of the Covenant - but that's what makes Him God. If we could understand Him or control Him, He wouldn't be much of a God. I think you'd be hard pressed to find an example though where God killed people that were loving Him and serving Him in scritpure. Everyone that died did something in the eyes of God that was unjust. They say the fear of God leads to wisdom ... maybe we should all start being a little more afraid knowing what He can do.

 

 

I also won't argue your other point - God has personally killed people, Sodom and Gomorrah is one example. God also struck dead a man who was carrying His very own Ark of the Covenant - but that's what makes Him God. If we could understand Him or control Him, He wouldn't be much of a God. I think you'd be hard pressed to find an example though where God killed people that were loving Him and serving Him in scritpure. Everyone that died did something in the eyes of God that was unjust. They say the fear of God leads to wisdom ... maybe we should all start being a little more afraid knowing what He can do.

 

 

The story goes that someone in the crowd thought the ark was going to fall so they rushed over to steady it and was struck dead for touching it. So someone who was devout and only wanted to help protect a holy artifact from destruction was killed for their effort. There's your example right there of a good person being killed by god.

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Here's another example. Was no one else in soddam and gommorah able to change their ways? Was everyone there a bloodthirsty killer about to commit murder or was the whole city declared evil and wiped clean by god? And who got saved? Certainly not lots wife who looked back to see the destruction. Furthermore lot ended up getting drunk and fathering children with his daughters. Why was lot saved and no one else?

 

Lot was saved b/c Abraham intervened. If he hadn't, Lot would have been dead too.

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The story goes that someone in the crowd thought the ark was going to fall so they rushed over to steady it and was struck dead for touching it. So someone who was devout and only wanted to help protect a holy artifact from destruction was killed for their effort. There's your example right there of a good person being killed by god.

 

You might think that ... and I agree, it looks that way on the surface, but pick up a commentary on the story and do some serious research ... I mean, a few hours and you'll make some interesting discoveries. Here's a hint .. check out Numbers 4:15 and dig around on exactly who Uzzah (the guy that God sturck dead) was.

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So far this has been a very stimulating conversation. I apreciate everyone's input to this topic.

 

I agree. While other people get weird around conversations like this, I actually think they are kinda fun.

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There is no one answer to your question.

 

 

That is the answer is the reason for your questioning on this subject.

 

 

Lot didn't choose to have children with his daughters, and their motives weren't devient either, you ever really read that story?

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I don't buy that. That's playing the blame game. If you believe in god then you believe you were granted free will. You always have a choice. Saying the devil made me do it is BS.

In the last 100 years, humans have been killing each other at an astounding rate. All because of what?

Temptation; lust for power, greed, hate, false pride, ect... Temptation has been the way of "manipulation"

 

Not sure how it all works but there seems to be a negative influence present in the universe just as there is a positive. Free will is a given but its the will power of a person that determines their choice of doing good or bad. Yes, we choose what we want to be, still, there seems to be two forces trying to lead us in opposite directions. Those who give in to the negative influence, act without compassion for others. Those that are strong minded do whats best for everyone. So when someone kills another for selfish reasons, he/she is action on the negative influence or Satan as some call it. Ultimately

he/she is responsible for choosing that outcome.

Edited by DieHARDmitsu.
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You might think that ... and I agree, it looks that way on the surface, but pick up a commentary on the story and do some serious research ... I mean, a few hours and you'll make some interesting discoveries. Here's a hint .. check out Numbers 4:15 and dig around on exactly who Uzzah (the guy that God sturck dead) was.

 

So basically if a bad man tries to do good he is killed? Is that what I'm supposed to be getting from this story?

 

 

I agree. While other people get weird around conversations like this, I actually think they are kinda fun.

 

 

That was the intent. Rational discussion. I may not believe but others do. I wanted to hear the viewpoint from those who believe.

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That is the answer is the reason for your questioning on this subject.

 

 

Lot didn't choose to have children with his daughters, and their motives weren't devient either, you ever really read that story?

 

 

Yes I read the story many times. They thought they were the only people left. He said no to his daughters request several times. Then he got drunk and they raped him while he slept. Hard to say they weren't being deviant when they were violating someone who said no. Lastly what did he get drunk on? god says take nothing and run but lot still brings booze?

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So basically if a bad man tries to do good he is killed? Is that what I'm supposed to be getting from this story?

 

 

I don't know that Uzzah was "bad", he could have been good for all we know. It's not really about whether he was good or bad or what he was trying to do. The rule was the rule - don't touch the ark ever for any reason (my paraphrase). If I'm a good person and I break the law I'm still held responsible .... like, I still have to pay a speeding ticket even if I was on my way to a charity event.

Edited by techboy
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In the last 100 years, humans have been killing each other at an astounding rate. All because of what?

Temptation; lust for power, greed, hate, false pride, ect... Temptation has been the way of "manipulation"

 

Not sure how it all works but there seems to be a negative influence present in the universe just as there is a positive. Free will is a given but its the will power of a person that determines their choice of doing good or bad. Yes, we choose what we want to be, still, there seems to be two forces trying to lead us in opposite directions. Those who give in to the negative influence, act without compassion for others. Those that are strong minded do whats best for everyone. So when someone kills another for selfish reasons, he/she is action on the negative influence or Satan as some call it. Ultimately

he/she is responsible for choosing that outcome.

 

 

I agree you can give into temptation but ultimately no matter what the temptation is or who's tempting you it's your fault for making the choice.

 

My question for you is can someone who is not religious still be a good person? Or does choosing not to believe make you a bad person?

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