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Roller Rocker problem


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#1 Yellow88quest

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Posted 12 October 2008 - 06:25 PM

Ok, i put in some 1.6 roller rockers from a 3.0 v6 and now my engine wont start, it just spins over like there is no spark plugs in it.... and there is!! im kinda confused as someone said b4 on here that these where a bolt on upgrade, does anyone have some input on this PROBLEM... character0056.gif





#2 chiplee

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Posted 12 October 2008 - 06:38 PM

QUOTE (Yellow88quest @ Oct 12 2008, 07:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Ok, i put in some 1.6 roller rockers from a 3.0 v6 and now my engine wont start, it just spins over like there is no spark plugs in it.... and there is!! im kinda confused as someone said b4 on here that these where a bolt on upgrade, does anyone have some input on this PROBLEM... character0056.gif


sounds like the valves are being held open.  Is it a stock cam?  I've heard of guys installing roller rockers on stock cams but I've always wondered how it worked.  Roller cams always have tiny base circles because the high ratio rocker would keep the valve open otherwise.
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#3 StarquestRescue

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Posted 12 October 2008 - 07:12 PM

I had the same problem, i tryed the long 83 style valves and stock  adjustable  rocker cam. It held the valves open. You really need a roller cam if you don't have one.
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#4 Yellow88quest

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Posted 12 October 2008 - 07:18 PM

I believe it is a stock Caravan cam?? it has adjustable screws on the rockers that came off of it... where can i get a roller cam?? can i go pull one off a vehicle or do i have to order one?? any input is very appreciated, Dvenable told me that the problem is the valves are being held open as well, and i believe him, but would like to know what cam i need... is it a magna cam?? and what vehicles had the cam i need? And if my valves got bent, im going to go find the ebay guy that says this is a bolt on upgrade and kick his a$$!!  Does anyone know if there is enough clearance between the piston and valves?? im really hoping my new njv-head has not been ruined from my believing that  deadhorse.gif

#5 StarquestRescue

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Posted 12 October 2008 - 07:47 PM

If you had a hydraulic lifter vales and cam i am told it should have bolted on. There is some debate as to weather rollers are an up grade or not, especially with a stock cam. I run in the 13 teens with the adjustable lifters. If your on a budget put the stock adjustable lifters back on. A roller cam head is best set up by a machine shop.The money you would spend is better spent elsewhere if your car is mostly stock.

Tim C or http://schneidercams.com/page-not-found.as...com:80/shop.htm sell roller cams.
2012 fall set up 20g 06  in the stock turbine houseing. 2g mas, Neo afc, Versafueler, 1050 / 2000 injectors on E85.  379hp 395 tq TBI Power

2012 spring set up. 18g06 in the stock turbine houseing.  2g mas, Neo afc, Versafueler, 1050 / 2000 injectors on E85.  Innovated data logging. 358 hp 393 tq. 12.71 @ 112
2011 set up. 18g05h,  2g mas, Neo afc, Versafueler, 1050 / 2000 injectors on E85.  Innovated data logging. 307 hp 360 tq  12.78 @ 112
2010 set up. 18g05h,  2G mas, Lsp 850 / 1400 injectors. Tuned with re flashed afc Neo version 1.104 and Innovated data logging.  297 hp 403 tq.


401 / 427 TBI   Dyno link-----------TBI Power http://www.sqperform....php?topic=33.0-----------Rear Gear link----------2010 Dyno link-------Feedback link

#6 Dad

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Posted 12 October 2008 - 08:05 PM

QUOTE (Yellow88quest @ Oct 12 2008, 08:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I believe it is a stock Caravan cam?? it has adjustable screws on the rockers that came off of it... where can i get a roller cam?? can i go pull one off a vehicle or do i have to order one?? any input is very appreciated, Dvenable told me that the problem is the valves are being held open as well, and i believe him, but would like to know what cam i need... is it a magna cam?? and what vehicles had the cam i need? And if my valves got bent, im going to go find the ebay guy that says this is a bolt on upgrade and kick his a$$!!  Does anyone know if there is enough clearance between the piston and valves?? im really hoping my new njv-head has not been ruined from my believing that  deadhorse.gif



Could be that you had the arly  longer valves,  be carefull with rollers,  It can cause your retainers to hit/damage the valve seals  or even coil bind the springs.

Rollers will either work or not work-  in your case they did not  so take them off and  go back with what you had.

Dad

#7 conquest707

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Posted 12 October 2008 - 10:31 PM

i just installed a set yesterday on my marnel head and ??? cam (sounds a little lopey, came with my parts car). but mine seemed to work fine. it has less of a clattering sound now. i made sure my lifters (hydrolic) were good when i intalled them.  not sure if this helped but it seemed to be the same kind of situation.

#8 Technology

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Posted 12 October 2008 - 11:26 PM

I had some rollers that held the valves open. Stock cam, I had the head off and was able to see light through a "closed" valve, so yeah, it's definately what your problem it.

#9 Indiana

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Posted 13 October 2008 - 12:28 AM

QUOTE (conquest707 @ Oct 13 2008, 12:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
i just installed a set yesterday on my marnel head and ??? cam (sounds a little lopey, came with my parts car). but mine seemed to work fine. it has less of a clattering sound now. i made sure my lifters (hydrolic) were good when i intalled them.  not sure if this helped but it seemed to be the same kind of situation.

If you put them on mechanical rocker shafts yes they will be noisey cause they aren't getting any oil and to use those rollers with the stock valves you end up with a LOT of clearance under the lifter and the valve isn't opening and closing when its supposed to from that and no I doubt the car will start and if you test your compression it will be very low that's why Tim was giving out little WASHERS to stick in under the lifter to use those damn roller rocker arms with stock valves and it makes your head so damn loud, eventually the washers get moved around and ate up, blocks the oil flow or even break the end from the rocker arm -which happened to me on TWO different heads.  If you want to use those roller rocker arms you absolutely MUST have the NON U.S. ROLLER CAM PERIOD to go with them.  Take the roller rocker arms back off and THROW them in the trash can, worn out chit anyway and the one that started selling those years ago should be slapped and they are still selling them.  The only way you can use roller rockers on this motor is to also use them with a ROLLER CAM. Your valve timing gets all screwed up if not and that makes for a big DOWN GRADE

#10 Shelby

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Posted 13 October 2008 - 07:40 AM

going  to roller rockers is a  great idea, it does how ever have  a few draw backs and one big one is YO CAN NOT DO SO ON A SLIPER  STYLE CAM and the use of a roller grind cam is a MUST , but with the proper set up and right cam it  frees up a  good bit of  so call'd free power

and for the 10 millionth time,, you MUST colapse the hyd lifters when/before  installing them in the head
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#11 Caliber308

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Posted 13 October 2008 - 08:33 PM

1.6 roller rockers, Roller cam, Stock length valves.......... No spacers, No workie!!!! With the proper spacers... Three years now, no problems. Contact Tim C. on this site if you want info. on Roller set ups.

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Edited by Caliber308, 13 October 2008 - 08:46 PM.

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#12 chiplee

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Posted 13 October 2008 - 08:38 PM

QUOTE (Shelby @ Oct 13 2008, 08:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
going  to roller rockers is a  great idea, it does how ever have  a few draw backs and one big one is YO CAN NOT DO SO ON A SLIPER  STYLE CAM and the use of a roller grind cam is a MUST , but with the proper set up and right cam it  frees up a  good bit of  so call'd free power

and for the 10 millionth time,, you MUST colapse the hyd lifters when/before  installing them in the head


hate to diverge from the OT but shelby do you think the roller could also increase gas mileage?  I've been daily driving my yellow car occasionally and the fuel pump is about to quit so I've really been limping around off boost just as mode of transport.  I imagine that's a big reason the gas gauge won't move too but this thing will not burn gas.  

I think if I converted to non-assisted steering it might get 30+mpg.

Edited by chiplee, 13 October 2008 - 08:38 PM.

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#13 mikec

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Posted 13 October 2008 - 09:47 PM

Roller rockers do two things:
* because of the shape of the roller vs. a slipper, the cam lobe can be more aggressive in opening & closing the valve so you get more net duration for the same total duration time.  That means better breathing = more power

* Rollers have less friction than slipper setups... (which is why they can be more aggressive in the opening & closing slopes) so there is less internal engine friction = slightly better MPG.

Internal friction is why a V8 gets worse MPG than a 4 cyl motor pushing the same car at freeway speeds.  Both engines are producing pretty much the same horsepower/torque at the wheels (same car, same speeds, so same drag coefficient and weight => same power needed) but that V8 has twice as many valves and piston rings making friction.  Running the V8 at a much lower RPM helps counteract that - friction losses increase with RPMs.  Even with lower RPMs though having twice as many moving/friction-making parts ends up costing MPG.

Other things that eat horsepower:
* oversize water pumps.  Ideally you'd push "just enough" water to keep the engine temps correct.  Unfortunately that "just enough" varies with engine speed, outside air temps, driving speed, etc... so the water pump and cooling system are designed for the "worst combination" possible.  Most of the time it's oversize and the water pump is sucking down twice as much HP as the cooling system really requires at that instant.

* thicker oil - it takes horsepower to push oil through the engine, thick oil consumes more HP.

* thicker tranny or differential oils too.

* running a too-cool thermostat: the heat dumped out the radiator (or out the exhaust) represents energy from the gasoline that did NOT become crankshaft torque.

* Other friction: bearings on the V-belts, power steering pump, etc.

mike c.

#14 Shelby

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Posted 13 October 2008 - 10:01 PM

just to expand on the too cool engine coment,, driveing to work on the free way and  going down a 1/4 mile  drag strip are two very diff things and require  diff things , also  what the  dash temp gauge  says and what the  temp  actualy is  at diff  area's  in the engine and  head  veary a great deal  for example the coolant may be 190 f  at the thermostat but  in another spot it may be 210f or over ,, engines are not  the  same temp in all area's , the  temp sender is only reading the coolant  at it's location
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#15 Shelby

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Posted 13 October 2008 - 10:04 PM

QUOTE (chiplee @ Oct 13 2008, 09:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
hate to diverge from the OT but shelby do you think the roller could also increase gas mileage? I've been daily driving my yellow car occasionally and the fuel pump is about to quit so I've really been limping around off boost just as mode of transport. I imagine that's a big reason the gas gauge won't move too but this thing will not burn gas.

I think if I converted to non-assisted steering it might get 30+mpg.


smile.gif  i see  your finding there is gold in that there  ol man driveing
i'm geting over 30 mpg doing that  with a slip rocker cam  but i  almost never see 60 mph all county  50 or 55 mph roads with a lot of 45 mph streets in there ,, with a mild  roller cam i beleave i could see 35 mph
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#16 PDX87Starion

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Posted 14 October 2008 - 12:41 PM

So to recap. ROLLER ROCKERS ARE NOT A BOLT ON PERFORMANCE PART FOR THE STOCK CAM. They change the valve opening and closing timing for the worst.

So it seems like a lot of people want to use them, so why hasn't anyone on these boards used a stock magna roller cam & roller rockers?
Considering the good HP & TQ numbers made with the stock cam, I think a stock roller magna cam and rockers could be a good upgrade.

I still haven't even seen a pic of the magna roller cam. I would really like to see someone who has the means, test one out.
And I would also think a cam with a stock roller profile would be a better staring point for a performance roller re-grind than a slipper cam, more meat in the right place, I would think.  confused0024.gif
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#17 Caliber308

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Posted 14 October 2008 - 01:06 PM

QUOTE (PDX87Starion @ Oct 14 2008, 06:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
And I would also think a cam with a stock roller profile would be a better staring point for a performance roller re-grind than a slipper cam, more meat in the right place, I would think.  confused0024.gif


Want the answers?? Contact Tim C. on this site.

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#18 PDX87Starion

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Posted 14 October 2008 - 02:20 PM

QUOTE (Caliber308 @ Oct 14 2008, 11:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Want the answers?? Contact Tim C. on this site.

CALIBER 308


He is free to join the conversation, but I'm not looking for just his answer. He provides a valuable service and I appreciate that, but I'm not convinced that only one person has all the answers.
Roller cam profiles do not typically look like a slipper cam profile and I dont think its possible to grind a true roller profile from a slipper cam. You can grind them so they will work, but that does not mean they perform like a true roller cam. So far the people who have done dyno testing have not seen gains from the after market roller cams compared to stock, which is disturbing, this should not be the case.

But if there is a stock roller cam that will work, why not use it. And why not use it for "performance" grinds? Are these cams that hard to get a hold of? Are the rockers unique to that app, or are they the same as the ones we are trying to use in the states? More info is needed.
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#19 89PalermoSHP

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Posted 14 October 2008 - 02:30 PM

Shelby, where is that roller cam???
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#20 Dad

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Posted 14 October 2008 - 02:48 PM

Seems  like they either work or don't on a stock camshaft.  You tried and it  did not work.

You now need to get a hold of someone that can figure out the problem   and as suggested  on here  there are a few.

As indiana said  you can't run  a mechanical shaft with hydraulics.. regardless if the are rollers or not.   No oil will get to the lifters.

Are the lifters stuck? pumped up?

What length valves are you running?   You need proper lash on hydraulics,,,,  too much and it can rattle, pound out the valve tip.   Too little and it can hold the valve open.

Be sure  the extra lift isn't coil binding your springs,  or  causing the retainer to beat on the valve seals.


Roller rockers are Not always a direct bolt on mod.

Once you get the oiling figured out  and the proper lash  maybe it will run ok,, then again maybe you will need to  again   look for a roller ground camshaft.


Dad




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