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Cam degreeing?


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#21 The Rabbit1

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 06:41 PM

got the majority of it down, although:

is there a centerline a stock hydraulic cam is proven to run better at?
what number is most desired on most engines/cams?
Is it on the cam card?
or is that a trial an error thing?
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#22 kidjc

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 07:41 PM

This is more like "Tutorial B.S." eh? :)  I like it!   Thanx!

#23 Shelby

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 08:32 PM

of all the stock cams I have done the farthest out was 3 degree late , did 4 of them , 2 were with in 1 degree, but this was with all new chain hardware
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#24 CaliConquestAlex

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 09:20 PM

What's the rule on rotating our engine backwards to degree the cam? My timing set has less than 3k miles on it. Is there a risk that you can damage the tensioner or that the chain will try to bunch up?
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#25 Shelby

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 09:35 PM

View PostCaliConquestAlex, on 05 November 2013 - 09:20 PM, said:

What's the rule on rotating our engine backwards to degree the cam? My timing set has less than 3k miles on it. Is there a risk that you can damage the tensioner or that the chain will try to bunch up?

no your chain is fine ,, but lets say one with 100k miles on it may be loose enough to jump ,,lol
besides degreeing a cam with a worn out timing chain would be a total waste


degreeing a cam is about like the first time you did a complete TPS and MPS adjustment
the first time is the hardest, after doing it a few times it's no problem at all

as for center line if you cam came with a center line number , if the valve open and close time matches , so will the center line number , advancing or retarding the valve open and close time will make the same change to the center line number
you want to do the valve specs check several times until you get the same number each time before making any changes

also if your adj gear has a TDC mark start there
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#26 CaliConquestAlex

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 10:15 PM

Just to confirm, because it seems that my MK1 cam gear is mislabled, with the engine at TDC based on the crank pulley/timing cover mark and the cam dowel up top advancing the cam would make the dowel pin move clockwise toward 1 o'clock, not counter-clockwise towards 11 o'clock when viewed from the front of the engine, right? My cam gear said that was retarding it, but I believe that it is labeled backwards.

Edited by CaliConquestAlex, 05 November 2013 - 10:16 PM.

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#27 Shelby

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 12:08 AM

you are right but we are only talking 3-4 degrees here ,it'd be more like 11:59 and not 11:55
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#28 CaliConquestAlex

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 01:54 AM

So towards 12:05 is advanced?
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#29 LiveWire

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 08:19 AM

Looks like I will be digging in to my built engin and doing this as will. I can't be leave my Dad didn't catch this when we had done the complet rebuild on my 88 quest engine. Good thing I didn't get anywhere with finishing the car with all my life problems that have delayed me gong forward.

He is a master mechanic and has owned his own shop and has worked on everything from complete race builds to running a heavy equipment fleet shop ( Catapillar large Diesel engines) and never once said anything.

#30 Shelby

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 02:17 PM

View PostCaliConquestAlex, on 06 November 2013 - 01:54 AM, said:

So towards 12:05 is advanced?



hum it's just my personal opinion but 12:05 would be too far advanced , but there is no preset number to use as the best all around advance or retard number , what I would suggest is to degree the cam to the oreg cam specs  on the card , see how it performs and go from there,,

far too many variable's for any one to tell you set your cam to such and such and you'll be in the best place , each engine and fuel system  has diff requirements , also where you time a 5 spd car is not the best for an auto car

normally advancing the cam raises your power band in the rpms range ,, retarding it lowers it ,,it only takes a small change to make a huge diff in how the cam performs ,, but again it all depends on what cam you are running and the rpm range your gona be using

if you talk to 5 diff mechanics you can get 5 different opinions on this cam degreeing thing , i'm not an expert at cam degreeing even tho I have done a bunch of them so take my advice for what it worth
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#31 CaliConquestAlex

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 02:25 PM

I was under the impression that advancing the cam brings the power band down in the rpms and retarding it pushes the power band up in the rpms.
2004 Infiniti FX35 Beryllium, Fully Loaded

2004 Lexus IS300 - Soon to be NA-T

1988 Conquest TSI - SOLD/Parted out
Magna Intake, MEGASQUIRT 2 (V3 Extra fw) Direct Coil Control - EDIS 4, 292m cam, Synapse Synchronic 40mm WG, Synapse Synchronic BOV, T3 TD06 20G turbo w/ .80 housing, 95 lb injectors, Treastone turbo manifold, ST springs, KYB GR2 shocks, MK1 front camber plates, Drilled/slotted rotors and braided brake lines, HD valve springs, SR20DET 3-row Radiator. MK1 Short Shifter, Da Funk Loc motor mount, Transmission Tuff-pan, Stedebani poly trans mount, Cusco front strut brace, TEP rear strut brace w/ battery tray, AEM UEGO wideband sensor.

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#32 Shelby

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 02:29 PM

think about what happens at say 5k rpms , if the valve opens late then you will have less time for air fuel to enter the combustion chamber , if the valve opens earlier you have more time for air and fuel to get into the chamber , works just like advancing the timing

but that's just my $.02
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#33 Shelby

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 02:47 PM

ok here's a small reason I normally try for 3-4 degrees advance , nothing staqys where you  put it  on a chain driven cam
you can find 100's of  diff opinions on this , by doing a scearch

c/p

I recently changed the cam in one of my test engines. I asked the installer to check the old cam's timing before removal to see how much initial wear in the chain and gears had affected it. The old cam had been installed using a degree wheel so we knew the initial timing was correct.

Turned out that "break-in" wear had caused the cam timing to retard 2 - 3 degrees during the first 1,000 miles of hard use. I'm guessing most of that wear was in chain stretch, but of course I can't prove it.

jerrybramlett is offline      
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so by advanceing the cam 3-4 degrees places it right where it belongs after a few miles of running
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#34 StarquestRescue

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 07:28 PM

View PostCaliConquestAlex, on 06 November 2013 - 02:25 PM, said:

I was under the impression that advancing the cam brings the power band down in the rpms and retarding it pushes the power band up in the rpms.
Cam up with this in a search. http://www.compcams....tion-angle.aspx
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#35 Shelby

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 08:03 PM

i'm not going to waste my time trying to tell you diff from what these cam makers are telling you , I will remind you they are talking about an engine that will never see 100 miles on it

I do want to ask you a couple questions , ok you got the engine all timed up at 4 degrees retarded ,you drive it a 1000 miles or so where do you think the timing is now ,still at 4 degrees ,:) hardly , the copy paste I showed you was about a v8 with a very short chain , your chain is a heck of a lot longer , 4 degrees may be great  but how 8 or 9 degrees cause that's where you will be with a little driving say a couple thousand

also I for got to mention any change at the cam gear is twice that at the crank ,so to get a 4 degree crank change all you change the cam gear is 2 degrees

for you other guys you can buy off set crank key ways , but they double the cam change like a 2 degree off set key way is a 4 degree change is cam timing
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#36 CaliConquestAlex

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 05:17 PM

Derp... No need to adjust the ignition timing with the crank trigger. Only if i was still on distributor. I just need to adjust the ve table.
2004 Infiniti FX35 Beryllium, Fully Loaded

2004 Lexus IS300 - Soon to be NA-T

1988 Conquest TSI - SOLD/Parted out
Magna Intake, MEGASQUIRT 2 (V3 Extra fw) Direct Coil Control - EDIS 4, 292m cam, Synapse Synchronic 40mm WG, Synapse Synchronic BOV, T3 TD06 20G turbo w/ .80 housing, 95 lb injectors, Treastone turbo manifold, ST springs, KYB GR2 shocks, MK1 front camber plates, Drilled/slotted rotors and braided brake lines, HD valve springs, SR20DET 3-row Radiator. MK1 Short Shifter, Da Funk Loc motor mount, Transmission Tuff-pan, Stedebani poly trans mount, Cusco front strut brace, TEP rear strut brace w/ battery tray, AEM UEGO wideband sensor.

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#37 Shelby

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 01:03 PM

how did you make  out  with this cam degreeing thing
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#38 Xtclink

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Posted 12 December 2013 - 08:56 PM

This thread just answered a few questions I had :)  


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#39 Shelby

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 05:56 PM

but I has not  answered any questions from the OP  as to  how he has done,, or is  some thing in the future that he was just trying to get a handle  on

back when I was raceing my 68 Road Runner I had to replace the timeing chain and gear every 10k miles and redo the  degreeing thing , so I got a lot of practice at it,, that's where I found out adding a few degees advance at the start made the true timeing stay closer to where I was aiming at longer  due to chain and gear wear , and our chain  assy is far longer then the V8 mopar  chain and gear was
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