Jump to content

T-56 6spd


Funky Phil
 Share

Recommended Posts

T56 swap requires:

 

-T56 LT-1 transmission with bell housing, $1000 used, $2100 new

-custom flywheel ~$400

-LT-1 lcutch assembly/TOB ~$200-600

-custom driveline $250-600

-adapter kit $~400 (block plate, pinion adapter, nuts/bolts, clutch slave adapter)

-electronic speedo ($100)

 

options:

 

-new aftermarket master cylinder and GM slave

- use an electrnic/mechanical adapter (~$300)

-have the tail housing modified to use a mechanical speedo ($300)

-lots of gear set options

-lots of high HP upgrades

-several race only syncro conversions available (dog-ring or pro-shifted)

 

Pros:

-parts will always be easy to find (high production numbers)

-was buld to handle more power in stock trim than most of us will ever make, and they can be modified to handle over 1100 HP

-not that hard to find used fo runer $1000

-fairly easy to rebuild

-shifter is dead center in the stock location

-tons of clutch choices, some to handle over 1000 HP.

-minimial chassis modification required (just some hammer work)

-fully reversable modification

-lots of options for internal modifications (aftermarket support)

 

cons:

-more expensive than most J-yard trannies cause they are in demend

-heavy(~130 pounds vs 75 stock)

-total investment prices this conversion out of most people reach

-speedo issue/options may be a problem for some.

-aftermarket internal modifications are expensive (but aren't they all :wink: )

 

minimum investment ~$2000 with used trans, well optioned with all new parts $3500.

 

----------------------------------------------------------------

 

If I had it to do over I would proably go with a trans from a V8. Wether it be the T56 or the Tremic that Dave is using. Either way its much stronger than any 4 cyl/rotary trans and there is aftermarket support to build it to take 1000+hp.

 

Down side as usually $$$

 

My trans is holding strong with no issuse but if/when it goes I really can't do anything but replace the broken parts. Nobody that I know of makes an off the shelf upgrade for Gen II supra trannies (w-58). :?

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 70
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

  • 7 months later...
  • 1 year later...
  • 2 months later...

I built some bellhousings for a friend for the narrow block 4G63, I probably should make some for the Wide block too if I knew enough guys were intrested. The wide block 4G64 is the same as the engines you guys are running .I used a T 56 6 speed from a camaro

 

http://www.billsautofab.com/images/T56bellhousing1006.jpg

http://www.billsautofab.com/images/T56bellhousing1007.jpg

http://www.billsautofab.com/images/T56bellhousing1008.jpg

http://www.billsautofab.com/images/T56bellhousing1014.jpg

 

I used a stock Mitsubishi flywheel and starter and pressure plate assemblies to save some money on the swap

but I had to use an internal throw out bearing with a custom disc so it aint as cost effective as my other housings

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What is the price for one of these built for this or any engine?

 

 

all my stuff is built for entry level guys who want to build a hot rod, my w 55/59 set up is a very economical set up for the average guy, the same is true of my GM adaptor plates for the 350/400 turbo auto trans

The R 154 set up is more for the upscale guys that make a lot of horsepower

I stay away from custom parts, all my stuff is built around 'over the counter' parts that are easy to come by and cheap to purchase

But this little guy is for the ultimate warrior .

There are two or three things that must be worked out yet. I want to build this bellhousing so a guy can buy a complete unit, including the custom disc and internal throw out bearing.

The bellhousing by itself should be in the $300.00 range, the internal bearing I have used in the past on my R 154 unit sells for about $130.00 and is readily available at most circle track outlets, I dont have a price on a disc yet

on the narrow block, I have been talking to a lot of guys who say they may want the AWD flywheel , because the twin disc clutch options are more readily available and 30% cheaper, I may make a change on that in the near future

I will also be making all my housings available into a wide block version this year

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would definately buy one for a wideblock mated to a t56. That is what I want to do next. But there already exists a fidanza flywheel made to accept a GM clutch, but bolt to our g54b crank. Would that be able to work with your bellhousings?

 

If so, I'd rather use a GM clutch for the wide range of options they have, plus durability and high capacity with a light pedal. Please let us know more, I've visited your website I believe, looks like great stuff.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would definately buy one for a wideblock mated to a t56. That is what I want to do next. But there already exists a fidanza flywheel made to accept a GM clutch, but bolt to our g54b crank. Would that be able to work with your bellhousings?

 

If so, I'd rather use a GM clutch for the wide range of options they have, plus durability and high capacity with a light pedal. Please let us know more, I've visited your website I believe, looks like great stuff.

 

 

do you have the diameter of the GM/G54B flywheel? is it a 6 bolt? the wide block I am biulding now is for the 4G64 wide block.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

Why not just use the LS-1 trans? It has a push type hydrolic TBO from the factory, and they are inexpensive. It requires adding 3/4" more thickness to your housing though, the input shaft is that much longer. Unsure of cutch depth though, that may require shims or custom flyehwheels.

 

I use the stock T-56 bellhousing mated to an adapter plate for the ability to use the 11" gm LT-1 clutches. The LS-1's are 11.5". Stock is a little over 9".

 

The total OD of an LT-1 clutch is about 12.75".

 

If you used the fidanza flywheel, I'm pretty sure (98%) you can use the push style 10.5" GM clutch (used on late model 350's and 305's) You only need to clear the diameter of the flyweel on that one, which is about 12-7/8".

 

When you think about the cost of the $500 flywheel, keep in mind that most are already wiling to pay $300 for one, that added $200 isn't much considering you can double the holding power for a given peddal pressure by using the much larger GM clutch lineup,adn it's a domestic part so they are cheap and easy to find.

 

Ivan and I both have a spec clutch rated for 800 ft/lb on our cars, and we both think it's engagement is very near stock, like a stage 2 stock upgrade maybe, but has held Ivans 570 HP, and is rated for MASSIVE power. I've been albe to slip mine on inclines just like a stock clutch, but has held even the worst full power clutch dumps on mine no problem.

 

Sometimes paying more for the flywheel to get chepaer/better clutch choices is a good value.

 

Beautify project by the way :) and comming from someone who knows the costs of R&D, your prices are admirable :thumbsup:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I guess I am an old school guy

I have one overall desire and that is safety.

I feel the engine/flywheel design should stay within its designed criteria. I recognize the original intent of this engine was to devlope less then 300hp and many of you have exceeded that number many times over, but an impropor clutch/flywheel combination in a manual transmission set up is a very dangerous situation. So with this in mind, I keep the engine to flywheel to pressure plate within the original manufaturer and many , many clutch designs are readily available from stock to overkill.

Second is cost

The bellhousing by itself should do all the work, its not up to the buyer to find or machine different combinations to use my bellhousings, they are plug and play. There is nothing worse that buying a latest/ greatest/ over the top part only to find you have to spend twice as much to support the part, and it puts your project back by two months of search and source,if OEM parts are used, any aftermartket will have the required the spacing

 

As for which trans to use? some guy told me when I build one for a VW , then I will be somebody, another asked me to build one for his neihgbors car because he could get it free, another guy wanted a toyota trans because it was in his shed out back. I think the worse conversations I have ever had at a car show with one of my cars starts with some guy with a chain driven wallet and double clutchin boots placing his Budwiser on the fender of my car and saying ' you know what you shoulda done'?

 

It is important to help support entry level guys get involved in this 'sport'. It supposed to be a fun experiment to build a hot rod, not a contest on how much money you can spend

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I guess I am an old school guy

I have one overall desire and that is safety.

I feel the engine/flywheel design should stay within its designed criteria. I recognize the original intent of this engine was to devlope less then 300hp and many of you have exceeded that number many times over, but an impropor clutch/flywheel combination in a manual transmission set up is a very dangerous situation. So with this in mind, I keep the engine to flywheel to pressure plate within the original manufaturer and many , many clutch designs are readily available from stock to overkill.

Second is cost

The bellhousing by itself should do all the work, its not up to the buyer to find or machine different combinations to use my bellhousings, they are plug and play. There is nothing worse that buying a latest/ greatest/ over the top part only to find you have to spend twice as much to support the part, and it puts your project back by two months of search and source,if OEM parts are used, any aftermartket will have the required the spacing

 

As for which trans to use? some guy told me when I build one for a VW , then I will be somebody, another asked me to build one for his neihgbors car because he could get it free, another guy wanted a toyota trans because it was in his shed out back. I think the worse conversations I have ever had at a car show with one of my cars starts with some guy with a chain driven wallet and double clutchin boots placing his Budwiser on the fender of my car and saying ' you know what you shoulda done'?

 

It is important to help support entry level guys get involved in this 'sport'. It supposed to be a fun experiment to build a hot rod, not a contest on how much money you can spend

 

 

I just want to say, i love you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Different philosophy I guess. I feel the custom fidanza is a finer product (safety wise) than any OEM part due to better balance, and because it is made from a billet product, not sand cast iron. I've seen some badly cracked stockers before. The fidanza also allows the use of the exact GM clucth the T56 was intended for. The end user needs a custom clutch regardless, so that cost-point is moot.

 

Also, the gm clutch is working no where near as hard for a given load due to greater diameter and surface area, so it's far less likely to fail from heat stresses.

 

Again, just a differnet philosophy, yours is not bad at all, just different from mine. I'd love to see one cast for the wide block, then you can cater to those wanting a drag setup where they want a twin/tripple disk anyway, where the smaller diameter bell won't hold them back.

 

Seriously though, look into the LS-1 for your 4G projects, just adding 3/4" more thickness on the trans side and you can use the GM TOB instead of rigging up some custom TOB stuff. that ought to cater to your "why reinvent the wheel?" phoilosophy too :) the pattern on the trans side is the same so you have very little to change in the prototype

Link to comment
Share on other sites

hi dad

 

The 4G63 is a high rev,very tall engine.

 

with the engine so tall and not knowing the application it will be used in, I built it with ground clearance in mind, the smaller the flywheel the lower the engine could be safely mounted in any given car.

 

because your horse power curves are so high in the RPM range, i thought the smaller diameter flywheel would work to your adavantage , while it is true you may want extra flywheel wieght in a road race or dirt track application for extra torque through curve exits, the trade off to less wieght at the higher RPMs would be to your adavantage at the end of the speed traps in 1/4 mile racing

 

Adding 3/4 inch doesnt sound like much, but not knowing what application the engine will be used in, that would have to allow for another inch of firewall clearance, that may or may not make all the difference in the world

 

As for your clutch application, the Mitsubishi clutch is designed to work with the Mitsubishi engine outputs, regardless of its type ( single disc, triple disc, OEM)

Your idea of the GM clutch is designed for the GM trans inputs , not the Mitsubishi engine outputs. In other words, the Mitsubishi is driving the trans, not the trans driving the engine

Edited by Bill Hincher
Link to comment
Share on other sites

the fidanza flywheel is only 5/8" larger OD vs stock overall, it does not add much to the ground clearance issue. It's only prodrudes about 3/16" beyond the stock ring gear.

 

the t56's gearing is much higher than stock (3.36 vs 2.66 in first gear) any added weight is a good thing actualy. I have a hard time getting my car moving from a dead stop without reving and burning the clutch, a lighter flywheel will only make it worse. I'm having to put in different diff gearing to compensate (4.22's make 1st though 3rd nearly stock). Your 4GXX customers will have the same issue.

 

the 3/4" is added to the back of the bell (the small side) so clearance in the trans tunnel should be about the same.

 

the custom fidanza flywheel is only 4-1/2 pounds heavier than the stock replacement fidanza (15# vs 10.5#),a n dthe clutch is a similar weight difference

 

getting a 9" disk to hold 600+ FT/lb is a lot more difficult (and expensive) than doing so with an 11" disk, and drivability will always suffer with the smaller units. Also, the 11" disk is already splined for the 26 tooth input shaft. No need for custom order clutches. I can order a replacement clutch and have it in my hands in just a few days because it's an off the shelf item.

 

The engine only knows what the clutch/flywheel assembly weighs, and the trans only knows how much tourque actualy gets though the clutch. Keepign brand loyal has no benifits. I chose a combination that gets maximum torque though the assembly, with very little peddal effort (making it easy to opperate/modulate).

 

The customer will either need a custom clutch or custom flwyheel, so there is added cost either way.

 

I just see an alternate design that will serve your customers better, and serve more custoemrs, thus making you more $$$.

 

I'm trying to help, not debate or negate your fine work on this project.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

the custom fidanza flywheel and LT-1 clutch is about 15 pounds lighter than the bone stock clucth/flywhee assembly ... nothing to compensate for.

 

Besides, the front pully is just a pulley, it's not a dampener. Infact, early G54's (83 and older, including starions) had a solid steel crank pully. 84 and later had a rubber isolated pully, where the PS was on the crank hub, and the water pump/ald/AC were on the rubber isolated portion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why not just use the LS-1 trans? It has a push type hydrolic TBO from the factory, and they are inexpensive. It requires adding 3/4" more thickness to your housing though, the input shaft is that much longer. Unsure of cutch depth though, that may require shims or custom flyehwheels.

 

I use the stock T-56 bellhousing mated to an adapter plate for the ability to use the 11" gm LT-1 clutches. The LS-1's are 11.5". Stock is a little over 9".

 

The total OD of an LT-1 clutch is about 12.75".

 

If you used the fidanza flywheel, I'm pretty sure (98%) you can use the push style 10.5" GM clutch (used on late model 350's and 305's) You only need to clear the diameter of the flyweel on that one, which is about 12-7/8".

 

no problem,

if this is the proper route to go , I will order a T56 trans today from the LS 1 set up and start the new housing on the wide block model, I will look into building it around the chevy flywheel

I have been putting off building the wide block version for all my stuff , but I guess that is whats needed at this piont

I will be glad to document my work and post it on this site

Link to comment
Share on other sites

the t56's gearing is much higher than stock (3.36 vs 2.66 in first gear) any added weight is a good thing actualy. I have a hard time getting my car moving from a dead stop without reving and burning the clutch, a lighter flywheel will only make it worse. I'm having to put in different diff gearing to compensate (4.22's make 1st though 3rd nearly stock). Your 4GXX customers will have the same issue.

 

let me look into the proper wieght for the flywheel to get this worked out

Link to comment
Share on other sites

are there any differntial gear options for the DSM crowd? We an swap in truck gears with realitive ease in the starquest housings, you can use the stock 3.55, or put in a 3.90 or 4.22 set.

 

The T-56's can also be gotten with different ratios, but they are waker and rather rare.

 

The LS-1 would require the least custom work with regards to the TOB geometry so it's probably the least expensive trans to use in the end.

 

If you make the housing modification to what you currently have by adding about 3/4 " longer, that is probably the only change you'll need to make. The bell patterns are the same on the 2 different transmissions on the trans side so your LT-1 centerlines and bolt pattern work can be utilized with the LS-1. the only change needed is the depth of the inputshaft and the TOB which is changed by lengthening your custom bell. If you an get those two in-sync with the stock flywheel/clutch assembly, then you have an easy adaptation using the work you have already done.

 

It would be nice see one that can use the fidanza and GM clutches too, but that woudl be starting over with a different housing. The custom flywheel will fit all your 6 bolt motors BTW, 4G63, 4G64 and G54B.

 

FYI, the stock G54B flwyheel is about 36 pounds, and the clutch another 12-15.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would think the proper place to add the 3/4 inch would be at the front of the bellhousing, not a plate at the rear.

that way you have more room for optional clutch cover

 

there are no restrictions or limitations, I have a free hand to change, move and replace any part to any location or position of any part , I can clock the trans to different angles, change which side clutch controls go it, redesign any cluch controls you may want

 

the biggest obstical to working with the narrow block was that the bellhousing never tappered enough going back towards the trans. the trans housing was as big as the engine bolt pattern, I had to draft in two different directions in the pattern build to allow for draft at casting

 

Lighter flywheels tend to lower the whole system inertia, it moves the high torsion stress point a little farther forward (away from the flywheel), and it raises the first mode frequency a bit, but sometimes you can run a little smaller damper.

 

The T 56 is kinda 'bling' in my estimation, its huge, heavy and aint geared right. Its built for a V 8 not a 4 cylinder

the R 154 Turbo box is a much better option

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

I been working out the details on the T 56 set up, its just a matter of very tedious work with an eye on the 'big picture' while you detail out the work

http://www.billsautofab.com/images/T56bellhousingfinsh.jpg

I had a couple of bellhousings cast in an oversize so I could work with a better pattern and get greater definition

http://www.billsautofab.com/images/T56bellhousingfinsh1.jpg

this bellhousing is such an unusual shape, its very difficult to get the 'draft' I need for casting and yet keep the shape light and strong

http://www.billsautofab.com/images/T56bellhousingfinsh2.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 Share


×
×
  • Create New...