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Roller Camshaft Discussion - Data Collection


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#21 mstieg

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Posted 03 November 2015 - 12:34 PM

The Galant rockers are 1.5 ratio, not 1.55 Magna, or 1.6 Caravan/3000GT etc.
You're correct that it takes 1/2 of 2 Galant sets x2 for full set due to diff alignment on Galant's intake/exh rockers.

Still no input from Tim here?  

Before: 352 rwhp @15psi; MPI: SDS EM5F; Chad intake & equal length header; S256 turbo (56/80comp-64/74ex); 48" of 2.5" IC piping
Now Done:  7.5:1 .35 Wiseco rebuild w/ crank scraper; 274 Magna roller cam & 1.55 rockers; mod port AMC head; 1mm>valves; Innovate WB; GM alt/rewired; 3" 240 alum radiator, elec fans; BMW X5 oil separator exh. crankcase vent; gas tank renewed; D2s; sway/strut bars; LT1 T56 clutch & trans swap w/ Fidanza; 4.22 rear; 265 Kumos on SHP rears; new steering pump/box/lines & coupler fix: http://www.starquest...howtopic=139558; full dash/console rewire - Autometer, push start, etc.
In Progress: breakin & tune
Future: Enjoy driving again; meets & local shows; AC; WG reroute from open vent to exh; Water/Meth?; body/paint

FOR SALE:  Rear Camber plates (basic); NIB beefy U-joints(2); etc.see-->  http://www.starquest...howtopic=133262 Custom 5 gauge overlay panel: http://www.starquest...pic=136703&st=0





#22 Mach 5

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Posted 03 November 2015 - 12:36 PM

Posted Image


Posted Image


Posted Image


Posted Image

Edited by Mach 5, 03 November 2015 - 12:37 PM.

Owner and Founder of Triple R Motorsports- Jarek-
-Rides-
-1987 Starion -Midnight Star - NITTO RB28/ Z33 trans/ gtx3582r build in progress
http://www.starquest...howtopic=152434
-1989 Chrysler Conquest-Track Beast Mode gtx3071r TBI 365hp 407tq @20psi- RIP
http://www.starquest...ic=151885&st=40
-1989 Pontiac Grand Prix Turbo SE- 3.1 gt4088r getrag284 Tilton twin disc
-1991 Toyota Hilux Pickup ext 3.0 WONTONPU 121hp
-1990 McLaren Turbo Grand Prix sold...
-1985 AE86 20v.. 171hp@ 8200rpm RIP

#23 kev

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Posted 03 November 2015 - 12:41 PM

AWESOME!!!!!

Right there answers all of the questions I had to date!   You can see the lobes are in different spots between those two cams!!!!

#24 Mach 5

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Posted 03 November 2015 - 12:42 PM

this is only part of the story.. I will need time to sort through my emails and I don't want to derail the current thread. But my experience with RPW needs to be known.

-Jarek
Owner and Founder of Triple R Motorsports- Jarek-
-Rides-
-1987 Starion -Midnight Star - NITTO RB28/ Z33 trans/ gtx3582r build in progress
http://www.starquest...howtopic=152434
-1989 Chrysler Conquest-Track Beast Mode gtx3071r TBI 365hp 407tq @20psi- RIP
http://www.starquest...ic=151885&st=40
-1989 Pontiac Grand Prix Turbo SE- 3.1 gt4088r getrag284 Tilton twin disc
-1991 Toyota Hilux Pickup ext 3.0 WONTONPU 121hp
-1990 McLaren Turbo Grand Prix sold...
-1985 AE86 20v.. 171hp@ 8200rpm RIP

#25 Mach 5

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Posted 03 November 2015 - 12:44 PM

I hope it helps ya.
Owner and Founder of Triple R Motorsports- Jarek-
-Rides-
-1987 Starion -Midnight Star - NITTO RB28/ Z33 trans/ gtx3582r build in progress
http://www.starquest...howtopic=152434
-1989 Chrysler Conquest-Track Beast Mode gtx3071r TBI 365hp 407tq @20psi- RIP
http://www.starquest...ic=151885&st=40
-1989 Pontiac Grand Prix Turbo SE- 3.1 gt4088r getrag284 Tilton twin disc
-1991 Toyota Hilux Pickup ext 3.0 WONTONPU 121hp
-1990 McLaren Turbo Grand Prix sold...
-1985 AE86 20v.. 171hp@ 8200rpm RIP

#26 kev

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Posted 03 November 2015 - 12:45 PM

View Postmstieg, on 03 November 2015 - 12:34 PM, said:

The Galant rockers are 1.5 ratio, not 1.55 Magna, or 1.6 Caravan/3000GT etc.
You're correct that it takes 1/2 of 2 Galant sets x2 for full set due to diff alignment on Galant's intake/exh rockers.

Still no input from Tim here?  

I have been meaning to test the ratio with MD106245 rocker.    It keeps slipping my mind when I'm in my garage. I will do it and report back.

I have heard from Tim in regards to my post in the other forum.   I don't want to put words in his mouth and was hoping he would respond eventually.

#27 Mach 5

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Posted 03 November 2015 - 12:47 PM

I think half the part numbers for the galant vs magna are the one in the same?? the research I came up with showed they were but maybe Im wrong??

-Jarek

Edited by Mach 5, 03 November 2015 - 12:47 PM.

Owner and Founder of Triple R Motorsports- Jarek-
-Rides-
-1987 Starion -Midnight Star - NITTO RB28/ Z33 trans/ gtx3582r build in progress
http://www.starquest...howtopic=152434
-1989 Chrysler Conquest-Track Beast Mode gtx3071r TBI 365hp 407tq @20psi- RIP
http://www.starquest...ic=151885&st=40
-1989 Pontiac Grand Prix Turbo SE- 3.1 gt4088r getrag284 Tilton twin disc
-1991 Toyota Hilux Pickup ext 3.0 WONTONPU 121hp
-1990 McLaren Turbo Grand Prix sold...
-1985 AE86 20v.. 171hp@ 8200rpm RIP

#28 kev

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Posted 03 November 2015 - 02:37 PM

View PostMach 5, on 03 November 2015 - 12:32 PM, said:



I think funkyphil is coming out with a cam line btw

-Jarek

Phil's cam looks awesome and is dyno proven!!   It is a slipper cam tho.  A bit of an impact on the budget but very justifiable being it is a weld overlay.  One of my original goals on my build was to upgrade to a roller cam setup.  I'm still clinging onto hope that I may still be able to go roller even if it is 100% stock magna.

In a couple weeks I'm going to make the decision on pulling the plug on the roller cam.  If I do, I'm thinking about going with a mechanical slipper setup meaning I'll need a good mechanical slipper cam...Phil's on the top of the list.

Kev



#29 kev

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Posted 03 November 2015 - 03:40 PM

View PostMach 5, on 03 November 2015 - 12:42 PM, said:

this is only part of the story.. I will need time to sort through my emails and I don't want to derail the current thread. But my experience with RPW needs to be known.

-Jarek

Doesn't matter, this thread was derailed back in post #13 and #14...(rolling my eyes).  Now it has turned into a data collection thread.   Hopefully in the end we will have some solid conclusions backed by factual data.

#30 Mach 5

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Posted 03 November 2015 - 05:51 PM

so then how about this.. your a moderator... clean the thread up and then change the title to something more that suits and lets keep the ball rolling??
Owner and Founder of Triple R Motorsports- Jarek-
-Rides-
-1987 Starion -Midnight Star - NITTO RB28/ Z33 trans/ gtx3582r build in progress
http://www.starquest...howtopic=152434
-1989 Chrysler Conquest-Track Beast Mode gtx3071r TBI 365hp 407tq @20psi- RIP
http://www.starquest...ic=151885&st=40
-1989 Pontiac Grand Prix Turbo SE- 3.1 gt4088r getrag284 Tilton twin disc
-1991 Toyota Hilux Pickup ext 3.0 WONTONPU 121hp
-1990 McLaren Turbo Grand Prix sold...
-1985 AE86 20v.. 171hp@ 8200rpm RIP

#31 kev

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Posted 04 November 2015 - 07:05 AM

Good feedback and suggestion.   How about this?  Split the thread, named the 'new' part, and moved it to the cam forum.

#32 Mach 5

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Posted 04 November 2015 - 09:35 AM

should I post my experience with rpw on here since this is a data collection thread??
Owner and Founder of Triple R Motorsports- Jarek-
-Rides-
-1987 Starion -Midnight Star - NITTO RB28/ Z33 trans/ gtx3582r build in progress
http://www.starquest...howtopic=152434
-1989 Chrysler Conquest-Track Beast Mode gtx3071r TBI 365hp 407tq @20psi- RIP
http://www.starquest...ic=151885&st=40
-1989 Pontiac Grand Prix Turbo SE- 3.1 gt4088r getrag284 Tilton twin disc
-1991 Toyota Hilux Pickup ext 3.0 WONTONPU 121hp
-1990 McLaren Turbo Grand Prix sold...
-1985 AE86 20v.. 171hp@ 8200rpm RIP

#33 kev

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Posted 04 November 2015 - 09:42 AM

Up to you.  Or make a new one in the cam forum.

I'm looking forward to it.   Been staring at those pics you posted.    That lobe sure looks like it holds that valve open at almost full lift for a long time.    Curious to hear the specs you asked for vs what you got and what the total lift is.       Did you do a clay test or something to make sure you have enough valve to piston clearance?    

David at rpw suggested using their 'hks' grind.  Wondering if his 'off the shelf' grind would have the interference issues that you had.

#34 Mach 5

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Posted 04 November 2015 - 10:40 AM

all of his grinds are an HKS like grind.. he only has master lobes for his cams which is why he sells you your custom grind and you get whatever he has on the shelf with no cam card. of course  found this after the fact.
Owner and Founder of Triple R Motorsports- Jarek-
-Rides-
-1987 Starion -Midnight Star - NITTO RB28/ Z33 trans/ gtx3582r build in progress
http://www.starquest...howtopic=152434
-1989 Chrysler Conquest-Track Beast Mode gtx3071r TBI 365hp 407tq @20psi- RIP
http://www.starquest...ic=151885&st=40
-1989 Pontiac Grand Prix Turbo SE- 3.1 gt4088r getrag284 Tilton twin disc
-1991 Toyota Hilux Pickup ext 3.0 WONTONPU 121hp
-1990 McLaren Turbo Grand Prix sold...
-1985 AE86 20v.. 171hp@ 8200rpm RIP

#35 Mach 5

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Posted 04 November 2015 - 10:43 AM

Heres only a small part of it... The rest I will post later. This was After I received the cam.  

Hi David. I have a question Im hoping you can assist me with. I am setting the timing on the cam and after I set the cam to 112 intake centerline. I am having mixed results. When checked intake open timing I have 13*btdcand intake closed timing is 43*abdc checked at .050". its suppose to be 25*btdc and 69*abdc I haven't checked the rest. I wanted to know how these cams are set but also the specs I provided are set at .050"lift. Please let me know.

Specs of the cam provided-

intake duration- 274
exhaust duration- 274
lobe separation- 114
intake degreed- 112
valve overlap- 46
intake open BTDC- 25
intake close ABDC-69
exhaust open BBDC- 73
exhaust close ATDC- 21

Duration @ .050" lift- 230
.480"lift

Thank You
-Jarek




David when you read these. Please get back to me. I need to understand why the specs I provided aren't ground on this cam. Is this a better grind? If you have the cam card from the grinder please send it to me.

Thank You
-Jarek


also I need to know since this cam is different where am I setting the intake cam lobe centerline degree to?? It looks like a really nice cam but I cant figure out why everything is different than the specs I provided. Thank You

-Jarek


David Thomas

Sep 28 (4 days ago)
[img]https://ci3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/8CBWEZYl_gju-O0mEKjDNw0Eh_qIbYUu1oZBKfZqOypmLO1gU9NfBBUnKK5HrwoN-VKG8iQn_PvQpZDlbxq0IwVL9dQOy_HcGJ0=s0-d-e1-ft#https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/images/cleardot.gif[/img]
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to me
[img]https://ci3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/8CBWEZYl_gju-O0mEKjDNw0Eh_qIbYUu1oZBKfZqOypmLO1gU9NfBBUnKK5HrwoN-VKG8iQn_PvQpZDlbxq0IwVL9dQOy_HcGJ0=s0-d-e1-ft#https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/images/cleardot.gif[/img]









To be honest I would need to go back to the camshaft grinder who may have used a slightly different profile or change it to what we use to use.

Regardless, I recommend using the centreline method to balance your camshafts rather than working off the cam specifications.

Find the centreline of each camshaft and dial them in relation to each other and the crankshaft. Check the following link for the method I normally use to dial in these camshafts

http://shop.rpw.com.au/technical-guides/236-camshaft-install-timing-6cyl-sohc.html







Thanks for your response.
Here is what I have all timed and everything. I have graphed the entire profile


advertised- 261.5* in/ 278* ex @ .002"
duration @ .050" 212.5*in/ 211.5* ex
lift- .310" in/ .312" ex

@.002
in open- btdc- 11.5*
in close- abdc- 70*
ex open- bbdc 74*
ex close- atdc 24*
overlap- 35.5*
lobe separation- 118*
degreed @ 111.5*


I believe we can both agree that while this cam is slightly larger than stock it is not what I ordered. Im not even sure what to expect. If this is one of your previous grinds any idea on what to expect. meaning how will the engine run and respond?


okay so by all the measurements I have taken, this cam is as of right now installed @ 111.5* intake centerline and exhaust centerline of 105*. so with a lobe separation of 118* and using your method of setting the cam up it is set 6.5* retarded. so I will have to advance the cam 6.5* and that way it also matches with the lobe separation of 118*..? Is this correct? Also I would really like an explanation as to why the cam I gave the specs for was not ground to what I ordered and also with this setup how will it perform?

8.1:1 comp 0 deck
gtx3071r
tubular headers
port and polish head- m28
3inch exhaust no cat
MPI manifold


I really think you need to send me the correct cam that I ordered. The more I think about it the more Im pissed. Why did I bother giving specs for a grind that I wanted for it to be way milder and not even remotely close. That was a lot of money for me to waste for it not to be what I ordered and I worked very hard for to pay for it to be wasted on something I didn't order. Please seek to understand why I am upset about this and I think we really need to fix the issue.

Thank You
-Jarek



With regards to the profile of the camshaft, as explained from your initial order, we are not able to match the exact numbers you required. The only way we could do that is if we had already ground a camshaft and made masters to those specifications.

As explained, we would attempt to provide a profile which matches that as closely as possible or which we have done. It is always our procedure to make sure the profile we send is always slightly smaller rather than slightly larger when customers request a custom profile, as our philosophy is it is better to maintain good power / torque with something slightly smaller than to go larger and lose out on idling, torque and power in the midrange rpm levels. The larger you go, the bigger the difference it makes to the way the car runs, with smaller increments (If that makes sense to you).

The thing you need to remember as well, is that turbo camshafts do not require massive lift / duration profiles to make good power compared to naturally aspirated camshafts which are the opposite.

The profile you have received is very similar with some slight variations, to the HKS 272/300 profile which is what we most commonly use for Turbo cams in all levels of racing and has always been an effective profile. Additionally, because this is a roller rocker setup, the camshaft profile is actually more aggressive at higher speeds compared to a flat tappet roller rocker setup as well as being a hydraulic profile.

With regards to the setting up of the camshaft, don’t get too focused on the lobe separation side of things. That is a fixed item and you cannot really change that. The advancing / retarding of the camshaft is more to do with where the power / torque comes in when tuning on the dyno. I recommend starting at approx. 5 – 6 degrees retarded, do a baseline tune and then adjust the cams timing to say zero, and hten to 5 degrees advanced and see what it does to your power / torque / boost curve.

Work out then which type of curve you want on the dyno and then proceed to complete your dyno tune then. Note the camshaft timing advance / retard does have a direct effect on your idle stability because it is a single cam with fixed lobe separation profiles. That is part of the balance you need to achieve in tuning between power / idling.

How are you measuring the camshaft? Without using a proper camshaft measuring equipment and cam doctor program, you would not be able to measure the camshaft properly. This may be misleading you on the profile of the camshaft as well.

I hope this makes sense to you and if you have any further questions do not hesitate to contact me.

David Thomas



Thank You for your response. I will say this.. I have every message saved from when we first spoke. From the beginning it was requested that I provide the specs for my camshaft by you and that the cam will be matched to those specs. I provided specs that I myself with advice from my machinist picked out and forwarded them to you. In essence what I was given was not what I ordered. If its not perfect as per what you feel would be best then you advise me on that and state the changes that you believe should be made. But as stated in previous messages this was not the case. I never received a timing card or spec and when asked it was shrugged off like it was irrelevant. A direct quote from your email after I provided the specs you requested to have my custom cam machined.., "I have spoken with our cam grinder and there are no problems matching these improved specs with a hydraulic roller rocker setup." If this weren't the case I should have been advised of a better solution. Now am I happy with this cam? I am happy they way I looks as far as performance is concerned I haven't tried it just yet but as advised from my machinist who has been in the business over 35 years he said I ,"Should notice a small rump in idle and will pull harder longer than stock." but stated that it was "milder" than what I ordered. For this I am not happy as it is NOT what I ordered. This is why I have an issue. I spent a lot of money that I have saved up between all the bills and life expenses that get in the way. I would be much happier if I was advised and notified of this change. If it is better than what I initially ordered than please tell me and why and I will be on my way. Id like to be a happy customer but as of right this second I am not

-Jarek



to David
[img]https://ci3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/8CBWEZYl_gju-O0mEKjDNw0Eh_qIbYUu1oZBKfZqOypmLO1gU9NfBBUnKK5HrwoN-VKG8iQn_PvQpZDlbxq0IwVL9dQOy_HcGJ0=s0-d-e1-ft#https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/images/cleardot.gif[/img]








Now that Im going back in the messages I was not informed once of what you stated in your previous email. Here are direct quotes from you

"We can provide the camshaft to whatever specifications you wish being a billet design" "We don’t have a chart as such, as all camshafts we make are indivudal customised to the customers application" "I do not know what the max lift will be sorry, we won’t know until after he grinds the camshaft"




[img]https://ci5.googleusercontent.com/proxy/HnQEuL9jZksgf4ynnhs8lHb_hcc7GcFb1RwAF60dJ-cEI8FM112XgbT9a5X8W4eyu7weR9FNPVi2-KqZQwZBSDRqKVGX1zK2pfaYzdDrebg-wg=s0-d-e1-ft#https://ssl.gstatic.com/ui/v1/icons/mail/profile_mask_2x.png[/img]


David Thomas

Sep 29 (3 days ago)
[img]https://ci3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/8CBWEZYl_gju-O0mEKjDNw0Eh_qIbYUu1oZBKfZqOypmLO1gU9NfBBUnKK5HrwoN-VKG8iQn_PvQpZDlbxq0IwVL9dQOy_HcGJ0=s0-d-e1-ft#https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/images/cleardot.gif[/img]
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to me
[img]https://ci3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/8CBWEZYl_gju-O0mEKjDNw0Eh_qIbYUu1oZBKfZqOypmLO1gU9NfBBUnKK5HrwoN-VKG8iQn_PvQpZDlbxq0IwVL9dQOy_HcGJ0=s0-d-e1-ft#https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/images/cleardot.gif[/img]









I can appreciate where you are coming from but I will again clarify several factors

(A)   We have attempted to match the specification’s you have provided but we are never able to match them exactly if we have never made a master profile before for that profile.
(B)   You are still not understanding that you are converting your engine from flat tappet to roller rocker. A roller rocker profile is completely different to that of a flat tappet, a roller rocker produces the same results as a flat tappet, with a smaller profile due to the very different nature of the ramps profiling on a roller rocker.
©   Will this camshaft be an improvement over a stock design, yes for two reasons, roller rocker and larger profile.
(D)   How much improvement – I cannot tell you. I have never used this profile on your engine before, and there are many other factors including tuning, turbo etc. This would be the same answer I would provide any customer with any camshaft, we can only give estimations on vehicles with mods that we have done similar.

Unfortunately my camshaft grinder does not provide cam cards. This has been a bone of contention with him over many years, but unfortunately since he is one of the very very few companies who will cast and make billets in small batches for small companies like myself, there is nothing I can do to make them change their mind.

I believe once you get the car up and running you will still be impressed with the results of what you will achieve.

David Thomas



I understand more than you think. I will say this, honesty has always been one of my major things. A person that is honest with me has me as a customer for life but if I feel betrayed or lied to as in this case well that's a whole different story. I have every message saved I have received from you. I know and you know that much of what you wrote to me after I said there was an issue with the cam grind I received from you is a load of bull and most of which was never said to me in the first place! That being said, everything regarding the custom cam grind that was ordered is nothing that I received. Whether it be due to poor communication on your part or whether it be due to that's what you had so that's what you sent me either way I was informed by you that the grind I had ordered was a grind that was going to not be an issue to make as written by you. Do I agree that this cam is going to be way better than the stock cam? Absolutely. But, it is not what I ordered and is way short of spec. You did what you could to sell me a product you cant back 100% and your trying to find every way possible to make me believe this is truly what I wanted and Id be satisfied  Im wiling to bet that you had no idea I would be degreeing and specing out the entire cam I have received from you as Im sure most people just install it. Now for the amount of money I have spent you will agree that I should have gotten what I ordered and if not then I should have been explained why it couldn't be done. This was not the case at all. I have spoken on multiple occasions with my engine machinist whom isn't happy with the way this whole thing is going. He has informed me that I can give you his shop information so you can understand whom I am working with. His shop is Ace Crankshaft in Deer Park, NY. We both agree that due to me being led on to believe that I was receiving exactly what I ordered and that it was of no issue and also that I was manipulated that I should be compensated in some form. I think you care greatly towards making each customer happy to allow your business to grow but I also think that you know Ive been wronged in this case and that it would be best to help me out in some way. I was hoping to have a pleasant experience to find out while not a disaster it hasn't been anything satisfying after finding out about this.

https://www.facebook.com/Ace-Crankshaft-All-Out-Performance-Engines-146234515426095/timeline/

Thank You
-Jarek

[img]https://ci6.googleusercontent.com/proxy/RnNZfQn2o2xpggJQqefCOervMbPIci5mujDPJnvl43kv6Rtxjyh5gHN_JKVzeU-aaGz3pePFgxfoAAtZJZNx8mveVTc-11j98EfuAJVcumUenA=s0-d-e1-ft#https://ssl.gstatic.com/ui/v1/icons/mail/images/cleardot.gif[/img]

I have no issues with anyone degreeing camshafts and checking them.

I have been honest at all times and I am in no way attempting to mislead etc.

The only thing I can offer at this stage is if you want more lift / duration on that camshaft is to return it back to me and we will get it re-profiled and return it back.  

Again I cannot guarantee we will meet the exact specifications you are asking for but we will attempt to get it “Closer” to those specifications within the roller rocker profiles available.

Ensure when returning the camshaft back to us you mark it as “Goods return for warranty” so that it does not incur any incoming custom fee’s / charges etc.

David Thomas




I was definitely mislead the more I re-read all the emails the more I realized Ive been snowed. Wont the baselobe on the cam change if you go to modify the cam? and how can I be guaranteed at this point that everything will be fixed? I don't believe this is going to happen. I cannot believe how this is going and I think my next route is to either start sharing my experience with others and I have every message that states what I was promised and the reaction afterwards or to contact paypal. Neither of which I would like to do. I know for a fact that this deal has gotten screwed up by your misleading sales pitch. I would like a partial refund and I will walk the other way. Seriously. I don't like dishonest uninformative service and I myself and others included that have been involved in helping me all have said the same.. Ive been snowed by this. You cannot sell something as custom and sell something as any profile due to it being billet and then say to me after my findings that I am just confused and this is considered normal. The world doesn't work like that. Im sorry. For this to make me go away I am requested the partial refund based on this and for te amount of money I have wasted its the least you could do by all means. Now as far as the current cam goes it may be okay for my engine but my argument is based off of the a few simple things.. Its not what I ordered, its not custom to the specs that were agreed upon by both parties, and being mislead and dishonesty of the seller as being something that what was and is not. I have every right to be pissed and annoyed as much as I am especially given that this is at least $4-500 above the on average price of a typical camshaft and around $200 above a custom billet grind for somewhere else. But Im not upset about how much I paid for a product but rather much more upset on the experience in its entirety along with the product the was received.

-Jarek
Owner and Founder of Triple R Motorsports- Jarek-
-Rides-
-1987 Starion -Midnight Star - NITTO RB28/ Z33 trans/ gtx3582r build in progress
http://www.starquest...howtopic=152434
-1989 Chrysler Conquest-Track Beast Mode gtx3071r TBI 365hp 407tq @20psi- RIP
http://www.starquest...ic=151885&st=40
-1989 Pontiac Grand Prix Turbo SE- 3.1 gt4088r getrag284 Tilton twin disc
-1991 Toyota Hilux Pickup ext 3.0 WONTONPU 121hp
-1990 McLaren Turbo Grand Prix sold...
-1985 AE86 20v.. 171hp@ 8200rpm RIP

#36 kev

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Posted 04 November 2015 - 11:47 AM

That is a lot to digest....

I'm jotting down some of your numbers trying to make sense of it all.   One positive is that it is much closer than the Monsta Banshee that I have!

Did you record the degrees at .050" of valve lift or cam lift?    However even it you did it at .050" of valve lift, the duration would be less at .050" cam lift.  

It looks like your intake valve is opening a little late but the rest are almost spot on.   But it is hard to get an accurate measurement at only .002" lift.  

I'm a little lost in the discussion on lobe separation (LCA), might just be how I'm reading it.   Lobe separation is fixed in this case and is in relation to the camshaft.   Changing the intake centerline position won't change the LCA.    It looks like your actual measurement resulted in an LCA of 4 cam degrees greater than what you wanted?  

So you measured .480" of valve lift?   If the RR is actually 1.55, that means .310 cam lift..spot on if I'm reading it right.

I need to study this more but it appears that you have it indexed in so that the valves are opening/closing pretty close to where they should with exception to that intake valve open number..throwing off your LCA and overlap numbers..resulting in the wrong intake valve duration.    Might be just a quality issue????

Did you record the degrees at every .050" of lift?   Would be able to plot out the curve like I did.   Would be interesting to see the ramp up and peak curve.   Judging by the pics alone it appears to be a steep ramp up and a shallow curve....which in theory is what you want..open/close it as quickly as posible and hold it there as long as you can.  

I honestly think that this cam will run pretty good.    I just don't like the interference issues.

#37 Mach 5

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Posted 04 November 2015 - 12:04 PM

I never said it was a bad cam. But you cant sell a cam as custom then send something that isn't spot on or something super closer esp for the money. But the cam itself looks decent. between that and the cam card issue is my real gripe. I asked for 274 duration and 230 @ .050...

not 260/278. and duration @ .050" 212.5*in/ 211.5* ex
Owner and Founder of Triple R Motorsports- Jarek-
-Rides-
-1987 Starion -Midnight Star - NITTO RB28/ Z33 trans/ gtx3582r build in progress
http://www.starquest...howtopic=152434
-1989 Chrysler Conquest-Track Beast Mode gtx3071r TBI 365hp 407tq @20psi- RIP
http://www.starquest...ic=151885&st=40
-1989 Pontiac Grand Prix Turbo SE- 3.1 gt4088r getrag284 Tilton twin disc
-1991 Toyota Hilux Pickup ext 3.0 WONTONPU 121hp
-1990 McLaren Turbo Grand Prix sold...
-1985 AE86 20v.. 171hp@ 8200rpm RIP

#38 Funky Phil

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Posted 04 November 2015 - 12:31 PM

Heres the problem with cams. A custom cam can only be so custom. They use a lobe master. All they can do is see if they can get close to what you want using the masters they have available.

If you had a company, likely small and not super profitable, and someone requested a cam that in you opinion would not work well, would you be happy to stamp your name on it and send it out the door?

What they did is not right Mach. Schneider does the same garbage (knowing or unknowing). Thing is, 99% of people dont check them. Sounds like a good business model.

It should work like this,
cust: Im looking for a cam with this spec xxx
shop: let me check what we can do
shop: okay, based on our masters, we can offer thisxxx or this xxx to get you close.

Been through 4 cams with schneider, all incorrect. They werent happy to know I was looking.

If you call a company and ask for a cam, and they dont counter or explain their masters, they arent worth your time.

If you arent chasing some master cam that unlocks all the power of the 2.6, it sure is a lot of hassle. I also have a cam sitting in my shop, $4XX wrapped in it.....Didnt make any power.......Just another casualty in the pursuit.

Cams are voodoo.
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#39 Funky Phil

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Posted 04 November 2015 - 12:37 PM

My "1.4" rockers multiplied more like a 1.38 or something. fyi
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#40 Mach 5

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Posted 04 November 2015 - 12:46 PM

Well that being said Mr. Funk it was their exact practice you've described that I have an issue with. I had him check with the cam grinder to make sure it could be done.. and this is where I have my problem..

Here are the first half of emails in correspondance with RPW:






Hi I am looking to purchase one of your billet camshafts for an 87 Mitsubishi Starion with a 4g54b 2.6l. It has a flat tappet hydraulic setup. I am unsure as what Stage is what as the cam chart isn't loading correctly. Also do you ship to USA?

All help greatly appreciated! Thank You!
-Jarek




We can provide this camshaft, or we can one step further and upgrade you to a hydraulic roller rocker camshaft set which would have large improvements over the existing setup.

A roller rocker camshaft setup would be valued approx. $950.00 plus freight to the USA
-David



Thank you for getting back to me. My question as far as the roller rocker setup is how is lash set? Is this going to be a direct bolt on no modifications required setup? How is the valve train geometry? And this will be for use on an M28 casting cylinder head. This head has been ported and polished and is suppose to be getting flowed next week so when I get the test results back I can pick a profile that suits well. Also since I cant load the cam profile list, what are the options for cam selection? I am very interested and I would rather have a billet cam over a regrind.

Thank you for your help
-Jarek



ohh and I should clarify a few things.. this is a turbo motor. Secondly I am considering the roller cam but I was more so looking for a flat tappet hydraulic but I may change my mind. I know that affects cam selection just wanted to make sure before we continued discussion.
Thank You
-Jarek



The hydraulic roller rocker setup is identical to the factory flat tappet / hydraulic setup. No modifications are required other than setting the valve heights to factory hydraulic specifications.

We can provide the camshaft to whatever specifications you wish being a billet design

Turbo specifications re no problem. I have used this exact same camshaft with the roller rocker and it is definitely the best long term way to go.
-David




ohh and I should clarify a few things.. this is a turbo motor. Secondly I am considering the roller cam but I was more so looking for a flat tappet hydraulic but I may change my mind. I know that affects cam selection just wanted to make sure before we continued discussion.

Thank You

-Jarek


Thanks for the reply. I like the idea of the roller setup. I don't have any specifics as to what cam spec to choose. I would like it if you could provide me with a chart that has valve grinds with specs that I can pick from. Thank you

-Jarek


We don’t have a chart as such, as all camshafts we make are indivudal customised to the customers application

-David









okay well do you have something in mind that might be a good grind? There isn't much testing in the G54B world. Id like something slightly above stock maybe a little bit more lift

-Jarek





Radical Revs <spoon93@gmail.com>

Feb 9

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okay well do you have something in mind that might be a good grind? There isn't much testing in the G54B world. Id like something slightly above stock maybe a little bit more lift

-Jarek


If you give me the specifications of yoru stock Starion Turbo Profiles and any profiles that are used in the staets on these engines, I can design a profile tha will work well with what you want

-David


ok sounds good. Ill send something in a few. Many guys use the stock cams as they say the upgraded cams aren't worth doing but without proper degreeing and such im sure there isn't a way to actually test the gain/loss. SO I really don't have much to go by

-Jarek



Whats the ratio of roller rocker that will be supplied with the roller cam setup?

-Jarek


Same ratio as factory I believe its 1.7 : 1. All the 4G54 rockers have the same ratio
-David


I was curious as Im reading that stock is 1.4:1 but there are other variations from Mitsubishi that have a 1.5:1 and even a 1.6:1 rocker.
-Jarek


So I looked into some specs.  

intake duration- 274
exhaust duration- 274
lobe separation- 114
intake degreed- 112
valve overlap- 46
intake open BTDC- 25
intake close ABDC-69
exhaust open BBDC- 73
exhaust close ATDC- 21

Duration @ .050" lift- 230

Please let me know what you think and based upon this what you think a good lift would be.

Thanks
-Jarek



here is the stocker..  as I read with 1.4:1 flat tappet hydraulic ratio rockers


intake duration- 264
exhaust duration- 264
lobe separation- 109
intake degreed- 107
valve overlap- 45
intake lift- .406
exhaust lift- .406
intake open BTDC- 25
intake close ABDC-59
exhaust open BBDC- 64
exhaust close ATDC- 20



Fantastic – I will send the specs to my camshaft grinder and see what his thoughts are on it.

David Thomas


okay sweet! Let me know what they say and if I should try a different spec
-Jarek


I have spoken with our cam grinder and there are no problems matching these improved specs with a hydraulic roller rocker setup.

If you can place an order via our online store at shop.rpw.com.au for a camshaft and make sure you choose turbo custom profile we can then get the camshaft manufactured ASAP.

David Thomas


Thanks for your reply. Before I place the order. When you spoke to the grinder did they have an idea on what the max lift would be based on the specs I gave you?
-Jarek


Any word on this?
-Jarek




Hi. I just wanted to be sure there wasn't an issue as I have been waiting for a reply. I really need to know what the max lift will be when using these specs before I order. Also wondering what the turnaround time will be? I will place as soon as I get a response. Thank You for your time!

Max lift??

intake duration- 274
exhaust duration- 274
lobe separation- 114
intake degreed- 112
valve overlap- 46
intake open BTDC- 25
intake close ABDC-69
exhaust open BBDC- 73
exhaust close ATDC- 21

Duration @ .050" lift- 230


Thanks
-Jarek



I do not know what the max lift will be sorry, we won’t know until after he grinds the camshaft
-David


Turnaround time is on average 2 weeks from order
-David


Thanks for your response. Well is there anyway that we can find this out? When I build a car I only use what I know is going in my car. There is a lot of money at stake here and I don't buy a cam for the sake of having a performance cam in my vehicle I buy it because its going to make power and give the results I want. Some people just buy a cam and throw it in have absolutely no idea on what they have and it can go either way. Im not questioning your cam in anything more than details.
-Jarek



okay I guess not. Ill have to figure something out then. Thank You
-Jarek



Im letting you know I placed order on website. I added note in comments. Please let me know what happens next.

Thank You
-Jarek

Edited by Mach 5, 04 November 2015 - 01:20 PM.

Owner and Founder of Triple R Motorsports- Jarek-
-Rides-
-1987 Starion -Midnight Star - NITTO RB28/ Z33 trans/ gtx3582r build in progress
http://www.starquest...howtopic=152434
-1989 Chrysler Conquest-Track Beast Mode gtx3071r TBI 365hp 407tq @20psi- RIP
http://www.starquest...ic=151885&st=40
-1989 Pontiac Grand Prix Turbo SE- 3.1 gt4088r getrag284 Tilton twin disc
-1991 Toyota Hilux Pickup ext 3.0 WONTONPU 121hp
-1990 McLaren Turbo Grand Prix sold...
-1985 AE86 20v.. 171hp@ 8200rpm RIP




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