SDS EM-3E. Now running.

[Elkidmino]

I have everything wired in, but I know something isn't correct. I need some suggestions guys. I am running an SDS EM-3E which controls fuel and spark on a motor equipped with a distributor. SDS has instructions for hook-up of a multispark box and MSD has instructions for hook-up but they contradict each other. According to SDS I have to hook up their "blue wire" to the "white wire" of the MSD which is the pick-up from a "points/electronic ignition amplifier." Makes sense. The MSD has two 12V + wires. The larger one goes to the to the battery and the small one goes to a 12V switched source. I used a 12V source from the secondary air box solenoids that were originally mounted on the front of the TBI.

 

Fuel injector harness is hooked up to the injectors which are high impedence. (I checked, 12.5 ohms). There is a 12V+ that is supposed to connect to the battery off this harness.

 

The unit itself needs a 12V switched source so I went off the black with a white striped wire under the dash. SDS requires that this source has a constant voltage through-out cranking. The SDS unit keeps resetting when I finish cranking, but it could be that there is too much a voltage spike. Anyone have a reccomendation on a better source, or should this be it?

 

Couple issues:

I am not seeing spark. The manual isn't very clear about the distributor hook-up. I set the dist 20 degrees before top dead center, but the SDS manual states "4. Turn the distributor housing until the #1 terminal is across from the rotor." Does that mean 180 degrees? I have the 8920 installed and I am still not seeing RPM signal.

 

EDIT: I narrowed this down a little. I can ground the "white trigger pick-up" wire and the coil will spark just fine. Looks like I am not getting the signal I need from the SDS to make it spark.

 

Second issue:

No fuel! I hooked up the injector harness as it should be, maybe I missed something? Fuel pump is working, I made sure of that.

 

 

 

I am starting to think that I do not have enough juice to keep the ECU alive in order to fire the coil and fuel injectors. I will need to replace the battery and get back to you guys. In the meantime, please give me your suggestions in case I missed something.

 

Ignition hookup

The SDS EM-4E is designed to send a signal to popular multi-spark units such as Crane, MSD and

others. Below shows typical hookup. The blue wire from the SDS main harness carries the ignition

signal, and connects to the white wire on the multi-spark unit. The white wire input is also known as

the “points†input. Some brands of spark units may have different colors than shown in this diagram,

so consult the manual that comes with the multi-spark unit. Also this diagram does not show all the

necessary power and grounds, so again consult the multi-spark manual to complete all wiring

connections. Important, do not connect the 2 wire inductive input to anything. There will be no

connections to the pickup inside the distributor. SDS uses the Hall sensor in place of the factory

distributor/crank position sensor.

http://www.26liter.us/gallery/albums/userpics/10121/SDSmulti.JPG

Warning! If you have an 8910 MSD tach adapter or any type of "dummy" ignition coil then it should

not be used with the SDS/MSD combination. The 8910 can damage the driver circuit in the SDS

computer.

 

Tachometer

Any multi-spark unit will always have a special connection labeled TACH. Factory tach’s that originally

connected to the negative side of the coil would see a 200 to 300 volt spike and operate fine, but

some may not operate with the 12 volt signal from the multi-spark unit’s tach output terminal. If your

tach does not operate you will need an MSD 8920 tach adapter for the purpose of amplifying the 12

volt signal to drive the factory tach.

 

Hookup diagram of the 8920 tach adapter

http://www.26liter.us/gallery/albums/userpics/10121/SDS8920.JPG

 

Distributor Alignment of Rotor With Cap Terminal. Very important

 

1. Set the crankshaft pulley to about 20 degrees BTDC.

2. Mark the distributor housing at the #1 terminal location.

3. Remove the distributor cap.

4. Turn the distributor housing until the #1 terminal is across from the rotor.

5. Tighten the distributor bolt.

6. Install the distributor cap.

 

For engines with distributors with centrifugal advance:

If the engine has any running problems, it may be necessary to permanently fix the centrifugal

advance on older distributors, so that the rotor position does not move.

This procedure is usually not as important on most 4 cylinder engines where the rotor width and wide

terminal spacing make this less critical, however, on 6 cylinders with small diameter caps and all 8

cylinder engines it may be necessary. The centrifugal advance will not affect the ignition timing in any

way. It will shift the rotor position slightly. We don’t want the ignition system to deliver a spark when

the rotor is away from the terminal on the cap, or worse, while the rotor is pointing to the wrong

cylinder. If the distributor has a vacuum diaphragm it can be left unconnected to vacuum.

 

I pulled the weights and locked the rotor in place as well as the magnetic pickup. I don't think I need these hooked up since the SDS should be triggering the MSD. I did ground the black/white stripe wire to the chassis ground.

 

Below are the MSD hook-ups:

http://www.26liter.us/gallery/albums/userpics/10121/MSD8920_voltage_triggered_tach.JPG

Our cars are voltage triggered, so I should be hooking things up like this minuss the magnetic pickup. The SDS gets its signal to fire via the hall sensor and crank trigger magnets.

http://www.26liter.us/gallery/albums/userpics/10121/MSD8920_current_triggerd_tach.JPG

I want to say this is the incorrect hook-up due to our - triggered tachs.

 

http://www.26liter.us/gallery/albums/userpics/10121/My_Wiring_Diagram.JPG

This is how I hooked things up, if it is not clear, I'll try my best to better explain it. I'm tired and need a break. (Please click and expand)

 

 

SDS supplimental material. (They say to use the EM-4 manuals for EM-3 hook-ups, the only difference are software upgrades)

SDS EM-4 Programming Manual

SDS EM-4E Supplimental Installation Manual

Edited April 24, 2009 by ElkidminoLTU

[Scotty Dont]

Have you taken a volt meter to see if you are getting constant voltage while cranking. I cant remember which wire I used for a switch source but I did use a relay as to not put too much load on my wiring harness...which could be your problem.

[Indiana]

I'd look for the wire under the dash to loose voltage even if briefly when the key moves from ignition to crank and vice versa same for the wires to the air box. The MSD box may have a relay inside that opens when it loses the initial signal and shuts the box down and the air box wire may be dead when cranking.

 

Can you get to the control relay or is it gone?

 

 

[Elkidmino]

I'd look for the wire under the dash to loose voltage even if briefly when the key moves from ignition to crank and vice versa same for the wires to the air box. The MSD box may have a relay inside that opens when it loses the initial signal and shuts the box down and the air box wire may be dead when cranking.

 

Can you get to the control relay or is it gone?

 

Stock harness is still in the car. Where is the control relay located and should I hook into that?

 

Scotty, that's a good idea. I just might have to do that.

[Chad]

I ran all new power leads for my SDS off the battery. I use a toggle switch for "switched" lead and injector harness supply, fuel pump, and coil pack feed is tied into that same feed. I use a buss strip for distribution. I had issues with the starter colum assembly contacts so I just bypassed it.

 

I can watch the display while cranking, if yours goes dead, you have it wired wrong. I watch mine because it's hard to start if the battery dips below 10 volts while cranking, so I watch the SDS voltage supply screen for that. My battery often sits long periods so it will go stale.

 

You should be able to recyce the stock ECU power leads, they are of adequate capacity and are setup to function the same as the SDS needs them to. I didn't want my install to use the old crap harness so it's 100% totaly independant of it.

 

If you need further assistance with the SDS, let me know. I have the F system so I can't help you with the ditributor issue, but I'd be glad to share tuning tips.

 

If you need to verify the wiring needs of the MSD, Ross and SDS will always help you, they hav etop nothc customer service. You may not get an answer on the spot, but you will always get one, and it's always helpful.

[Elkidmino]

Thanks Chad, I never thought to tap into the stock ECU power for the SDS ECU. I already have the SDS grounded to the same place. The stock wires are plenty large enough to handle the 20 gauge power wire from the SDS. I think I will swap batteries for a good known battery since this one sat all winter on the shelf.

 

For right now I have the power leads for the injector harness going straight to the battery so I know they are getting power. I was thinking of putting them on a seperate toggle switch to help isolate them from noise.

 

I shot Ross an email this morning so I'll let you know what he says.

[supturbo]

I also run the SDS EM 4F pretty much on its own aswell except for the switched power that goes to relays and than goes into a distro block for all the other components that need fusing. I relayed the "test" fuel pump wire under the hood for fuel. You can also splice into stock power from plug 38 on the stock harness.

As far as tuning I had to pm Chad.

[Indiana]

Where is the control relay located and should I hook into that?

Its above the stock ECU, it has all the wires you need.

 

 

 

There are 8 wires all different colors.

 

From top to bottom their color and control relay position according to the C/S service manual and a short description.

 

BW-black/white stripe 01 / (+) output / turns on the Fuel Pump when starter is cranking or engine is running

 

WR-white/red stripe 02 / (-) input / signal from ECU to activate fuel pump relay after

 

ign. switch moves from "start" position and engine is running

 

BR-black/red stripe 03 / (+) output / when ignition "on", this sends power to the injectors

 

B -black 04 / (-) grounded to body

 

BY-black/yellow stripe 06 / (+) input / from ign. switch "start" position

 

this activates a relay that turns on the fuel pump

 

R -red 05 / (+) output / when ignition "on", this powers the ECU

 

L -blue 08 / (+) input / from ign. switch "on" position

 

this activates a relay that powers the ECU and the injectors

 

B -black 07 / (+) input / fuse link back to Battery positive terminal

 

Here's the pigtail from the control relay.

 

http://www.b2600turbo.com/images/IM000933.JPG

 

The "control relay" is actually two relays ( magnetic coils ) in one and how the control relay functions is that when the ign. switch is in the "on" position that energizes one of the two coils via position 8 (14ga) and that takes the current coming in from position 7 (16ga) and passes it through to positions 3 and 5. When the ign. switch is in the "start" position that energizes the other coil to pass more of the current from position 7 through to position 1.

[Elkidmino]

I GOT IT RUNNING! :sweatingitout:

 

Basically, my battery and the jumper pack weren't enough power so I ditched the jumper pack for another battery wired in parallel. This gave me 12V, but a higher current for starting. Sure enough, my display stayed lit and the car fired! Oh man was I happy to hear it run!

 

Right now it'll run for 10 seconds and then die. The display will read ERR and the car will start to die. Sometimes it'll come back on for a little and then want to die again. Barry at SDS informed me I might have to adjust my magnet position by a value of ten to make it line up with the timing marks.

 

I plan on writing up an excel sheet with all my values and sending it to them, I will also post it here.

 

Stay tuned everyone!

 

 

 

P.S. Tach still won't work, I think I need to hook up that little black wire I left off.

Edited March 31, 2009 by ElkidminoLTU

[Elkidmino]

Email chain so far.

Hi David,

Glad to hear its running.

 

You need to adjust the Magnet position value. Get it running with the timing light on it, and adjust the magnet position value to calibrate timing so the light matches the SDS gauge mode. I reckon you will need to increase your magnet position value by about 10 according to your observations.

 

No need to move your distributor because this would make the rotor out of position which is bad! Since in your prior email you setup up your cap and rotor properly, good work.

 

Hall alignment is critical spend some time with this for sure. make sure magnets pass over the little black squares, which are hard to see.

 

The EM-3 is upgradeable with V17 software, if you want some newer features, such as Check engine light, O2logging, Lean warning. The EM-3 cannot do the nitrous retard, a/c input or launch rev limit due to lack of aux input.

-Barry.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Thank you for the response Barry!

 

I did get the car to fire last night, turns out the cranking voltage was too low so I doubled up batteries in parallel and the car fired. It'll fire, run for about 10-20 seconds and then die. I noticed that when it wants to die is when I see ERR in the RPMs. I am assuming this is due to the magnets not being close enough to the hall sensor. I left about 4mm just in case the crank-pully wasn't straight when I first fired it. I'll close the gap and go from there.

 

Timing: When I fire the car, and it runs at 500-750RPM and ten degrees according to the SDS. With a timing light on the crank pully it's reading 20 degrees BTDC. I have 10 degrees BTDC entered from 500-2000 RPM. I changed the value to 5 degrees BTDC and it backed it down to 15 BTDC on the timing mark, then 0 BTDC and it went to 10 BTDC on the timing mark. The stock motor requires 10, and I installed the dist @ 20 like the manual said. I thought the SDS would back it down to 10 automatically when I entered it. Should I re-stab the dist to 0 and so the degreeing on the pully matches the degreeing in the SDS?

 

I'll get an excel spreadsheet together of what I have entered and fwd it to you guys sometime this week.

 

I really appreciate your customer service guys, this is exactly why I went with your system.

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Hi,

See below for my answers.

>

> Goodmorning Ross!

>

> I installed an SDS EM-3E (4V9) with an MSD 6AL and 8920 tach adapter

> on my Conquest this past weekend and am having issues with fuel and

> spark for start-up. I am positive it's wiring or mechanically related

> so I'll describe how I hooked things up and where I had some

> confusion. Attached is a wiring diagram of how I hooked the system up.

>

> My first question is about the distributor. Is it supposed to be

> installed 180 degrees from the number one terminal?

> Step number 4 in your 4E manual reads; "4. Turn the distributor

> housing until the #1 terminal is across from the rotor." I guess this

> is fuzzy to me on whether or not I am lining the terminal and rotor

> up, or making them 180 degrees from each other.

>

I guess we could reword this and say the rotor must point toward the #1

terminal of the distributor cap.

>

> -> I locked down the weights and vac adv/ret on the inside of the

> dist. and installed it 20 degrees BTDC like the manual describes and

> then lined up the dist housing and #1 terminal. I grounded it.

>

sounds like you did this correctly.

>

>

> Second question is about the blue wire from the ECU. This provides a

> negative (-) pulse to the MSD box in order to trigger it?

> ->I can ground the white wire and it'll make the coil spark, but when

> connected to the ECU and cranking, no dice.

>

Yes blue wire goes to the MSD.

>

>

> Third question. What does the ECU require in order to make the

> injectors fire?

> ->The injectors are Siemens Deka high impedance ( I checked them, 12.5

> ohms) and my harness does not have the resistor packs. I connected the

> red 12V wire from the harness directly to the battery for this initial

> start-up.

>

sounds good here.

>

>

> Lastly (and this may answer everything). Do I not have enough cranking

> voltage to tell the SDS to fire the MSD and injectors? Should I

> possibly put relays in for the SDS and MSD to take some load off the

> wiring harness?

> ->I have a voltage of 12.3-11.7 volts depending on how many cycles I

> have cranked the car for. I hooked the unit to the 12V switched wire

> directly from the ignition. As I crank, the display on the LCD box

> dims and once I stop cranking, it goes back to it's default screen and

> into GAUGE 1.

>

>

Maybe try the MSD skinny red wire direct to battery + just in case its

cutting out when cranking. Make sure any 12 volts key triggered wire

does not get cut off when the engine is cranking, as this has happened

to a few guys in the past. radio,heater,some lights circuits cut off

when cranking and this can make it not start.

Also look at RPM fuel numbers. If its a fresh install bought used, rpm

fuel #'s could be way too low making it lean also.

 

Check the ecu's large white plug, and the wire at the bottom corner

needs to be grounded, if not then you get no spark and no fuel even

though the ecu and programmer are functioning, this one happens to

people often. This ground wire is for the ecu's fuel and msd driver

circuits only.

 

Pull the ign coil wire off and put it close to ground then crank the

engine and see if any spark. Also another trick is pull the distributor

out and simply spin it by hand and you should get spark and hear

injectors click also.

 

Send me your injector flow rate if you know it. Also if you want send

all the values in case they are mixed up. You can fax me but you have to

call me to turn on the fax 403-453-7687. or else use a scanner and email

the image.

-Barry.

 

[Sully]

wow.. awesome customer support from SDS. and you didn't even buy it from them.

[Chad]

This is whey I always reccomend them, it's not a very elaborate system, but it's well supported by SDS, and fairly easy to troubleshoot.

 

4 mm is way too much, I set mine up for 1 mm +/- 10%. that will fix you up real quick, just some fender washers should do the trick. I've taken it up to 8200 RPM (rev limiter set) and was smooth as silk all the way.

 

You will also get that ERR if the hall sensor leads are too close to the ignition system or if you run really noise plugs/wires. I run moroso ultra 40's, which are very very noisey, but the sensor lead never gets closer than 1', and at that point it's perpendicular so it doesn't pick any of that noise up. also make sure the shield lead on the sensor harness it grounded at the ECU/chassis, that is very nessesary.

 

I can email you my word document spread sheet if you want a copy of my tune. PM me your email if so...

[supturbo]

I run the accel super stock 8mm spiral core wires with no issues. These are custom made however due to the coil packs on the 4f model.

Glad to hear you got her running though- SDS is class one when it comes to customer support.

[Shelby]

theres this new thing out it's call'd a battery charger

 

very handy thing to have arround

[Elkidmino]

okay, I can get it to fire for about 20 seconds, says ERR in the RPMs and then it dies out.

 

 

??????????????????????????

[Chad]

Dies off as in stalls but the ECU console is sitll "on"?

 

You moved the sensor closer?

 

Got a fresh (or sell charged) battery in there?

 

Is your alternator working?

 

Hos close is the sensor/harness to the alternator windings?

 

go to the gage mode and monitor the voltage when it dies off (or just use a voltage meter).

 

You mess with the fuel mixture knob yet? If the start maps are vaslty different from the run maps, it will die off when it switches over. thit can be manipulated by adjusting the start cycles to a lower or higher number.

 

To my knowledge, "err" only shows if there is an undervoltage situation, the magnet is too far from the sensor, or if the hall sensor lead is picking up noise from the ignition system.

[Elkidmino]

What side did you run your sensor on? I ran it on the side with the alt. That must be my issue then.

[Convette]

damn, making progress for sure.. Its only a matter of time.

[Chad]

I have a 130 amp alt and placed the sensor right by the alt and never had a problem. I do have the wires located away from it as much as possible, and the wires that do come close are perpendicular to the electromagnetic field the alt produces.

[Elkidmino]

Okay, here is what I learned tonight while working on it.

 

The reason why I was having problems with the RPMs saying ERR was the rotor was not properly phased with the housing, so the MSD was building a charge and trying to jump the rotor. Once I aligned the body properly and hit the key, the car idled just peachy. What I mean is, the rotor has to come just before it hits the terminal it needs to. SDS requires 20 degrees and after I had it all set and done my magnet postition is 85 degrees which is spot on.

 

My fuel pump is working under cranking condition, but not when running. I need to figure out if I should just jump it with a relay. The SDS EM-3E does not have a fuel pump relay built in.

 

My start values are pretty good! I needed to crank up the fuel values and the temp fuel values. It's idling pretty decent now.

 

Black wire that was originally attached to the negative side of the coil must be hooked up for the tach to work.

 

 

 

More to come as I learn.

Edited April 3, 2009 by ElkidminoLTU

[Technology]

Cool.

 

Does the SDS have any other outputs you could use for the fuel pump?

[Chad]

these systems have those kind of features as "options". They add them in software and also require the wiring and internal mods to function. When you open the case you see where the switching transistors go.

 

I just have my pump wired to the Ignition switch. Not ideal, but it works form me

[Chad]

I think you'll need to do a 'bypass' for the pump relay, all OEM systems have a safety feature where if the ECU sees no engine rotation (from the distrubutor pickup), the fuel pump relay will be turned off incase the car has a roll-over or sevre crash. Since you have removed the ECU, it's not going to see any engine rotation so the pump relay will not remain "on" after the start cycle. The relay doesn't look for the "run' signal from the ECU during start, but does when you back off on the start key.

[Elkidmino]

I left the stock ECU in just in case I needed anything from it to run the SDS. The stock wiring harness is still in there too. (Engine bay is a rat's nest right now. ) I hooked the dist up to it's stock plug but that didn't change anything. Looks like I'll run a relay to the jumper wire under the hood. Simple; effective.

[Elkidmino]

More support:

 

4/3/09 12:50p

Hi David,

I sent you setup mode info to help you change it to 3bar.

You should write down all your manifold pressure values before doing the setup mode change, just in case you have any problems or need my help later.

You need to have 3 bar manifold pressure values in there, and the last step of setup mode will do this for you, this step rewrites all the manifold pressure numbers, and if the SDS had only 1 bar man press #'s then fuel mixture will be changed a lot by this change. Then RPM fuel numbers will need to be changed correct mixture. If you need help or get lost, send me your old manifold press and rpm fuel numbers.

 

Upgrade, you can order and install it yourself.

Go to:

http://www.sdsefi.com/ofpartus.htm

enter qty 1 next to microprocessor exchange with tool..

enter 34 in the shipping box at the bottom, for Fedex.

 

msd 2step should work fine. Commonly done.

 

-Barry.

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

4/3/09 10:00a

Hey guys I have some updates on the car. I found out my rotor was a little out of phase with the cap (this was causing an ERR code in gauge 1 for RPM) so once I re-aligned that, the car fired right up, idled nice and I got the timing and magnet position ironed out. I need to put a jumper on the fuel pump since the stock ignition system isn't seeing a signal from the ditributor to fire the pump (this is common for these vehicles with standalone's).

 

I was looking through the program on the SDS unit and it looks like I have software for the 1 bar sensor. Is there a way I can upgrade this to read the 3 bar sensor I have installed? Also, I guess while I am at it I might as well upgrade to V17 since it's still a V9. What steps do I take to do this?

 

Down the road I would like to run a 2-step module on the SDS for launch control. I am running an MSD 6AL and will be running the MSD 2 step modulator. This won't affect the SDS I assume?

 

Thanks again!

 

David Stefaniak

 

Simple Digital System

 

EM-3 and EM-4, entering SETUP MODE with V14 or newer software to change sensor settings.

 

Setup mode MAP sensor.

 

Unplug hall sensor plug from ECU.

Power up the ECU with the programmer plugged in.

Short pins 6 and 7, see attached picture, on the hall port momentarily(less than ½ second).

 

You will see SETUP TEMPSENSOR in the programmer window.

Push the > once, you will see SETUP MAPSENSOR

Choose one of the following by pushing the +1 button until the correct sensor is reading in the window.

1 BAR

2 BAR IN ABS

2 BAR

3 BAR

TPS

1 BAR METRIC

3.5BAR .5-4.5V *

5 BAR .5-4.5V *

Once the correct sensor is reading in the window push the > button 4 times until you see SETUP LOAD MAPVAL in the window. Push the +1 button to load the chosen MAP values in to the computer. **

Push +10 to exit setup mode

 

*Only in EM-4 chips and ecu's, and EM-3 chips sold after Oct 28, 2005.

**Feature does not work for 3.5 and 5 bar. Must enter values with programmer manually.

Note: with 3.5 bar values, tuner needs to multiply RPM CHART value by 1.2

Note: with 5 bar values, tuner needs to multiply RPM CHART value by 1.66

http://www.26liter.us/gallery/albums/userpics/10121/MAPsetup.JPG

Edited April 3, 2009 by ElkidminoLTU