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BATF Asking For Public Comments On Proposed Bump Fire Stock Ban


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#1 ucw458

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 05:55 PM

Make your voice be heard.  Tell them you don't want more rights taken away.

Article
http://blog.cheapert...8f84888abfe9321


Comment Portal
https://www.federalr...es#open-comment



Be sure to put  "BATF Docket number 2017R-22"  at the top of your comment or it wont be accepted.
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#2 Bradrock

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 08:57 PM

Thanks for the heads up. Not sure how much good it will do. I don't trust Jeff Sessions . I think the whole GCA of 1968 should be abolished.
Instead of wasting time and dollars on this 'feel good' legislation, they should try and recover the rifles Eric Holder gave to the drug cartels.
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#3 Walker

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Posted 15 January 2018 - 04:14 AM

I'm about as pro second amendment as a person can reasonably be and i abhor govt overreach and chipping away at our rights... but i don't see a purpose for bump stocks to legally exist


they are clearly using a loop hole to simulate autofire


i'm not sure i would support any device that mechanically assists in increasing the rate of fire


and my opinion on this existed when i first found that such a device existed and well before vegas



i am however an open minded person and if someone has a convincing argument as to why these should remain legal i'm willing to hear it

Edited by Walker, 15 January 2018 - 04:19 AM.


#4 BC_99

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Posted 15 January 2018 - 06:39 AM

Because they are just a fun waste of ammo. I have one on an ak47 and trying to use it and keep the rounds on a specific target any smaller than a barn is nearly impossible. People who are sick and have hearts filled with hatred, will find a way to do the damage they are intent on. There is no reason to take things away from law abiding gun owners who may just want a simulated auto rate of fire, because of one or 2 sick individuals.

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#5 Turbo Cary

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Posted 15 January 2018 - 02:06 PM

Criminals will get guns and banned accessories because they are criminals, they dont follow the law. 99 percent of law abiding gun owners are not a threat. We are the reason this country has not been invaded by foreign armies. A famous Japanese Naval commander once said "there would be a rifle behind every blade of grass" in reference to invading the US mainland.

These mass shootings that happen are so few and far between that giving up any rights for security will in turn remove our security from the government over stepping it's bounds. The reason the government presses banning magazine size, fire rate, etc is because they know that if they decide to go Nazi Germany style on us, that they will have a tough fight. So they chip away at our rights and liberties bit by bit. Until finally one day our children's children will wake up to find the land their forefathers fought for was stolen right out from under them.

#6 Bradrock

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Posted 15 January 2018 - 02:59 PM

We have been making these out of wood stocks with a few very simple mods for decades. That's where Slide Fire got the idea. Heck, you can bump fire from the hip with NO mods and a bit of practice.  New regulations would accomplish nothing more than letting a few politicians puff their chest out for a bit.
I bet Jeff Sessions is all for it.
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#7 averse

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Posted 15 January 2018 - 05:06 PM

View PostTurbo Cary, on 15 January 2018 - 02:06 PM, said:

Criminals will get guns and banned accessories because they are criminals, they dont follow the law. 99 percent of law abiding gun owners are not a threat.

I'm not convinced that it a reason society should make it easier.  It's like saying if a criminal wants to get into your house he/she will, so no use having locks on the door (or any other deterrent, such as a firearm).  It's not an all or nothing dichotomy.

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We are the reason this country has not been invaded by foreign armies. A famous Japanese Naval commander once said "there would be a rifle behind every blade of grass" in reference to invading the US mainland.

Not True, but catchy nonetheless!


I personally thought the reason we haven't been invaded was due to our superior military, distance any respectable military power would have to travel to invade us, etc....

They seem like fun toys, but surely there is room in our culture to put in more reasonable restrictions to help keep disturbed (mental illness or psychopathy) minds from the duck hunts that have been going on for a while now, without removing the opportunities for enjoyment from responsible gun owners.  We all would be better off in a more "middle ground" position, in my opinion.

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#8 Turbo Cary

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Posted 15 January 2018 - 07:31 PM

Our military isnt superior, we just spend more on it than anyone else. China has a larger army than we do, Russia has a substantial military force. The main threat is the United Nations. Crazy as it sounds the UN is the ones who the feds would call in for martial law/forced gun confiscation. Our military follows orders but anyone I have known or met who is in the military swears to uphold the Constitution and it's values. The US military has been demoting or flat out discharging top officials/soldiers who have stood up and said they would not follow gun confiscation orders. We don't get invaded because it is hard for a foreign military force to adequately ascertain the true strength of the country and it's citizens.

When you start putting mandatory psych evaluations and such on gun purchases it becomes an extremely grey area where you could have doctors getting hidden kick backs for the numbers of denied applications, longer periods to purchase guns means less guns in the hands of people who would use it to hunt, protect their lives/property.

Criminals buy and sell drugs even though they are illegal, they break laws because they are criminals. It makes no difference if there are more laws to prohibit buying guns, if people want them they will get them. I smoke weed, that's illegal. Yet I still go get it anyways. I am no different than criminals who go get guns illegally. Sure me buying pot may be a less violent or harmful crime but it is still a crime nonetheless.

#9 BC_99

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Posted 15 January 2018 - 08:38 PM

View Postaverse, on 15 January 2018 - 05:06 PM, said:

They seem like fun toys, but surely there is room in our culture to put in more reasonable restrictions to help keep disturbed (mental illness or psychopathy) minds from the duck hunts that have been going on for a while now, without removing the opportunities for enjoyment from responsible gun owners.  We all would be better off in a more "middle ground" position, in my opinion.

But why should we have to? Why should anyone have to subscribe to a “middle ground” philosophy?

The 2nd amendment was set in place to make sure that the law abiding citizens or militia of this nation, had the availability of weaponry equal to the military, in order to be able to put up a resistance to a tyrannical government that might try to overstep its bounds. The govenment did just that when they put such extreme restrictions on automatic weaponry. Now they want to try to continue this push with simulated auto rate of fire. I’ve already told you that it is an unrealistic way to try to hit a small target. Much less several small targets running around. For lack of a better term, think....”spray and pray”. It is just a fun waste of ammunition. Nothing more.

There are plenty of sheep out there, who would be happy to just let the government have their way with all of our rights. Then there are plenty of sheepdogs that will protect ourselves and the “flock”, despite all of the sheep bleating their head in the sand mentalities.

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#10 speedyquest

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Posted 16 January 2018 - 12:38 AM

I don't have a specific opinion on the bump fire stock but I think one thing you guys seem to point to pretty strongly is that our right as American citizens to bear arms is so we can protect against an oppressive government. The only problem with that is that is a common idea or opinion of what the 2nd amendment is for but its at least partially untrue.

The second amendment, at least back when it was written into law was to allow general public to help fight off invasion and some even believe to help quell slave revolts.

In the 1760's a lot of colonists were creating militia's and stockpiling their own weapons and ammo so that they could be sure to have the means to fight back if necessary. Once the British found out about this they put an embargo on both weapons and ammo coming into the Americas. Fast forward to the Revolutionary War starting and also the signing and putting into place the Declaration Of Independence the idea that those militia groups had stockpiled weapons was on the forefront of their minds and had a hand in what made their success possible they included that part.

So again, it wasn't to ensure that we as citizens could fight our own government, it was simply a call to the times and the specific events that had happened recently. That's really it.

EDIT:   Citation -->  DeConde, Alexander (2001). Gun Violence in America: The Struggle for Control. Northeastern University Press. ISBN 9781555534868. Retrieved 29 December 2014.

Edited by speedyquest, 16 January 2018 - 12:39 AM.

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#11 ucw458

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Posted 16 January 2018 - 04:31 AM

View PostWalker, on 15 January 2018 - 04:14 AM, said:

I'm about as pro second amendment as a person can reasonably be and i abhor govt overreach and chipping away at our rights... but i don't see a purpose for bump stocks to legally exist. they are clearly using a loop hole to simulate autofire.  i'm not sure i would support any device that mechanically assists in increasing the rate of fire.  and my opinion on this existed when i first found that such a device existed and well before vegas.  i am however an open minded person and if someone has a convincing argument as to why these should remain legal i'm willing to hear it

Just because you don't see a need for it doesn't justify stripping everyone else's right to own it.  I would suggest you find a range that lets you rent a full auto gun and try it.  It's alot of fun.

The left (for lack of a better term) likes to believe full auto is far more dangerous than semi auto.  In truth full auto fire is far less effective than semi auto fire in most situations.  It's mainly used for suppressing fire.  It's harder to control, not very accurate and consumes LOTS of ammo.  50 rounds lasts 2-3 seconds.  50 aimed shots in semi auto is far more effective than 2-3 seconds of spray.



Full auto is not illegal.  But the government has been chipping away at your right to own it for almost a century.  It started when the NFA was passed in 1934.  It required a background check and a $200 tax stamp for purchasing a full auto.  Back then $200 was alot of money so it made anything full auto too expensive for the average person.  That was the plan.  Fast forward to the 80s and $200 wasn't that much anymore so you got the gun control act of 1986.  What that did was ban any full auto made after 1986 and force registration of existing guns.  You didn't technically have to register them but if you didn't before the allotted time period then they were non transferable.  Meaning you can never legally sell them..  FFLs, military, law enforcement etc could own newer guns but not the general public.  What that did was create a limited supply of full auto guns.  Prices for legal full auto have skyrocketed since then.  Bump fire stocks and trigger cranks have become an affordable option for people wanting a simulated full auto experience.

To add insult to the situation, the $200 tax stamp takes a year minimum to be approved.  The computerized background check to get a regular gun takes a few minutes.  There are lots of other NFA items out there like suppressors or adding a shoulder stock to a pistol.  Anything NFA takes at least a year to get approved.  The stamp and wait apply to every NFA item.  So every time you want to buy one it's a year wait.  It's unacceptable but it's yet another way the government is limiting everyone's rights.
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#12 Walker

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Posted 16 January 2018 - 06:55 AM

View Postucw458, on 16 January 2018 - 04:31 AM, said:

Just because you don't see a need for it doesn't justify stripping everyone else's right to own it.  I would suggest you find a range that lets you rent a full auto gun and try it.  It's alot of fun.


i was in the military and love to shoot and i'm familiar with the fun of the occasional full auto fire

but fun isn't really relevant here. full auto weapons are effectively banned(cost and legal hoop prohibitive) for the vast majority of people in the country

allowing a loophole to allow every joe in the country to cheaply simulate a heavily restricted weapon type because "fun"  isn't a legit defense



View Postucw458, on 16 January 2018 - 04:31 AM, said:


The left (for lack of a better term) likes to believe full auto is far more dangerous than semi auto.  In truth full auto fire is far less effective than semi auto fire in most situations.  It's mainly used for suppressing fire.  It's harder to control, not very accurate and consumes LOTS of ammo.  50 rounds lasts 2-3 seconds.  50 aimed shots in semi auto is far more effective than 2-3 seconds of spray.



while the left tends to be wholly ignorant on all things gun there are some situations where a full auto weapon(including simulated) will do much more harm to life than a semi auto by the time people can react

if you're some untrained random psycho walking into a night club where people are packed like sardines with a fully auto weapon intent on indiscriminate killing then you will likely be more devastating than another typical untrained person with a semi auto

same with the vegas shooter.  90% of people in the US couldn't hit the front profile of a car from 500 yards away. training makes a 500 yard shot much easier....but spraying autofire into a crowd from 500 yards away becomes much easier to be deadly to an untrained person





either way....that is a red herring. the issue here isn't whether semi autos are more dangerous(in the hands of a trained person) the fact of the matter is that it simulates the fire rate of a heavily restricted type of weapon.... and fun isn't a good rebuttal for legality

semi autos have a legit use....for self defense.

the limitations of full auto weapons prevent personal defense from being a legit argument and this applies to bump stocks


anyone using a "for the freedom!"  defense here is hurting their own cause.  the gun grabbing left is looking for any excuse to take as many guns out of our hands as possible and fighting to allow semi autos to simulate auto fire rates will be an argument you will eventually lose....and probably in a much worse way to your freedom than not fighting this at all

#13 Turbo Cary

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Posted 16 January 2018 - 07:25 AM

View PostWalker, on 16 January 2018 - 06:55 AM, said:

anyone using a "for the freedom!"  defense here is hurting their own cause.  the gun grabbing left is looking for any excuse to take as many guns out of our hands as possible and fighting to allow semi autos to simulate auto fire rates will be an argument you will eventually lose....and probably in a much worse way to your freedom than not fighting this at all

I think this has to be one of the most un-American comments I have ever had to read. The great thing about this country is having the right to stand up and outcry over something you feel is wrong. Just "sitting back and not fight this" is exactly how the government takes away rights/freedoms.

Lets say someone put a turbo kit on a car or truck and then killed a bunch of people. The media says "the turbo kit allowed the vehicle so much power to accelerate and cause extensive damage." Now the government steps in. Says certain turbo systems should be banned, or you have to have a specific racing license and notify the government of said equipped turbo, you have to take a proficiency test to be able to have the right to use that turbo. How would you feel then? You'd probably feel like the government is over stepping its bounds. Most people aren't going to run people over, and most people won't have that turbo.

But because out of a population of 300 million when less than 10 people a year possibly do extensive damage we need to ban it. We are talking about 0.0000000003 percent of a population in a land where the voice of a majority is supposed to rule.

Edited by Turbo Cary, 16 January 2018 - 07:26 AM.


#14 Walker

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Posted 16 January 2018 - 08:32 AM

View PostTurbo Cary, on 16 January 2018 - 07:25 AM, said:

I think this has to be one of the most un-American comments I have ever had to read. The great thing about this country is having the right to stand up and outcry over something you feel is wrong. Just "sitting back and not fight this" is exactly how the government takes away rights/freedoms.





except this isn't a new freedom being take away or restricted.....it's an old restriction that has been in place for a long time that was loopholed


so if you want to argue that the bumpstock legal loophole should remain legal.....there needs to be a coherent and legitimate reason why they should remain legal in spite of the old restriction


"freedom" doesn't work here as a legit argument because it didn't work for the original law restricting auto fire weapons

#15 speedyquest

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Posted 16 January 2018 - 09:06 AM

View PostTurbo Cary, on 16 January 2018 - 07:25 AM, said:

I think this has to be one of the most un-American comments I have ever had to read

How is him having a different opinion than your's un-american? If anything he is using his first amendment rights to voice his opinion.

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#16 ucw458

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    This will mean the extinction of all life forms on this planet.

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Posted 16 January 2018 - 10:40 AM

View PostTurbo Cary, on 16 January 2018 - 07:25 AM, said:

Lets say someone put a turbo kit on a car or truck and then killed a bunch of people. The media says "the turbo kit allowed the vehicle so much power to accelerate and cause extensive damage." Now the government steps in. Says certain turbo systems should be banned, or you have to have a specific racing license and notify the government of said equipped turbo, you have to take a proficiency test to be able to have the right to use that turbo. How would you feel then? You'd probably feel like the government is over stepping its bounds. Most people aren't going to run people over, and most people won't have that turbo.

They already do that in austrailia.  You need government permission to do more than minor mods.  And if your turbo kit increases HP too far past factory specs for the car it's not allowed on the road.



View PostWalker, on 16 January 2018 - 08:32 AM, said:

except this isn't a new freedom being take away or restricted.....it's an old restriction that has been in place for a long time that was loopholed
so if you want to argue that the bumpstock legal loophole should remain legal.....there needs to be a coherent and legitimate reason why they should remain legal in spite of the old restriction


Just because the law has been around for some time doesn't make it any less unconstitutional.
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#17 speedyquest

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Posted 16 January 2018 - 11:03 AM

View Postucw458, on 16 January 2018 - 10:40 AM, said:

They already do that in austrailia.  You need government permission to do more than minor mods.  And if your turbo kit increases HP too far past factory specs for the car it's not allowed on the road.

I'm sorry but that is simply not true.

They have roughly the same kind of rules we do about things like color of external lights, window tint, etc.
Citation:  https://www.tmr.qld....ifications.aspx

And furthermore if that was true then how do you explain the thriving car community, Youtube channels like Haltech and Mighty Car Mods, etc?

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#18 Turbo Cary

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Posted 16 January 2018 - 11:52 AM

View Postspeedyquest, on 16 January 2018 - 09:06 AM, said:



How is him having a different opinion than your's un-american? If anything he is using his first amendment rights to voice his opinion.

It wasn't his opinion it was the statement regarding sit back and not do anything about it.

#19 speedyquest

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Posted 16 January 2018 - 12:20 PM

View PostTurbo Cary, on 16 January 2018 - 11:52 AM, said:

It wasn't his opinion it was the statement regarding sit back and not do anything about it.

He never said "sit back and not do anything". His point I think, or at least how I took it, was that sometimes you need to decide if this topic is worth it on the grand scheme of things. Basically choose your "battles". I don't like that verbiage though because its very Us v.s. Them and at the end of the day we all just want the same thing but have different ideas about how to get there.

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#20 Walker

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Posted 16 January 2018 - 12:49 PM

View Postspeedyquest, on 16 January 2018 - 12:20 PM, said:

He never said "sit back and not do anything". His point I think, or at least how I took it, was that sometimes you need to decide if this topic is worth it on the grand scheme of things. Basically choose your "battles".


yup.


View Postucw458, on 16 January 2018 - 10:40 AM, said:



Just because the law has been around for some time doesn't make it any less unconstitutional.


the supreme court says it's constitutional


they are the final say on the matter unless a new amendment is passed




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