jerastan Posted September 22, 2004 Report Share Posted September 22, 2004 i was talking w/ a friend of mine today. he builds F1 cars and specializes in carbon fiber. he is hands down, awesome. i have some of his work in my evo, and it's the nicest i've ever seen. my point...... he has offered to make a carbon intake manifold that would allow for more injectors. he would work w/ us on the design. i'm just looking for a place to start w/ it. anyone have a design that they think would work? i was talking w/ richie rich and he thinks the magna might be a good starting point. this is not some fly by night idea here. i really think that this might be a much easier way to go than the "traditional" mpi setup. jeremy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siance Posted September 22, 2004 Report Share Posted September 22, 2004 My advice is to make stock manifold with a better design, so us non mpi guys have a better performance upgrade...plus there are more non mpi guys out there, so that would mean better chance for sales...Don't for get theres more to mpi than the manifold, theres the FMS, custom piping..etc..It would be more cost efective to design a manifold that uses stock equipment.. IDEAS FOR MANIFOLD bigger runners than stock Place for extra injectors, if one want it better flow design( take care of cly #3 not getting proper fuel) Good Looking!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerastan Posted September 22, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2004 that's exactly what i'm trying to do!!!!! Â i don't want to mimic the normal mpi stuff, i just want to make a better version of the stocker w/ more injectors.. i'm thinking that an apexi safc would be just fine for tuning the fuel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smog Posted September 23, 2004 Report Share Posted September 23, 2004 I:d say spend your time on something more constructive.It:s great to have cheap dreams, but come on, lets face it, if you are going to design a intake, it better be mpi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerastan Posted September 23, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2004 well, being that i mentioned extra injectors...... wt.... are you talking about?!?! Â cheap my arse. Â since when would a carbon intake manifold be cheap? Â especially one that is totally custom, and incorporates room for more injectors. Â not trying to be confrontational, but why would it be a waste to try to do a newer, less complex multi injector setup? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Instigator_88TSI Posted September 23, 2004 Report Share Posted September 23, 2004 Hey Jeremy, If you figure something out with this I will be first in line, I have been thinking about MPI and if someone close can help me with it I will be all for it. And I have had a crush on carbon fiber for a while now and would love to get some thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D_Venable Posted September 23, 2004 Report Share Posted September 23, 2004 Why not make it with injector bungs on it for MPI and include a plate or plugs to plug and hide them for us guy with TBI setups Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerastan Posted September 23, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2004 i'm sure that would be possible. i would think a block off plate wouldn't be too hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dcrasta Posted September 23, 2004 Report Share Posted September 23, 2004 Hey man I agree a TBI manifold is a waste. Wet manifolds suck . MPI use the magna its awesome you can shorten the runners a little bit use a 65-70mm TB we got something nice U need some magna pics go to http://home.mindspring.com/~dcrasta/mpi4.jpg http://home.mindspring.com/~dcrasta/mpi3.jpg All these TBI people wanting to go fast might as well face the fact that in the long run to get near the HP levels of MPI you will spend and spend. By the time you finish your mods to exhaust and other issues you might as well not waste your time with TBI upgrades and go MPI. One ride in a properly tuned MPI quest is all you will need to know im right. I think the people that think the 2.6 doesnt rev and doesnt make power have never ridden in a good MPI quest. Something about that torque with the 4 cylinder responsiveness that is scary (not to mention when the boost hits..) ;D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerastan Posted September 23, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2004 Hey man I agree a TBI manifold is a waste.  Wet manifolds suck .  MPI use the magna its awesome you can shorten the runners a little bit use a 65-70mm TB we got something nice  U need some magna pics go to http://home.mindspring.com/~dcrasta/mpi4.jpg http://home.mindspring.com/~dcrasta/mpi3.jpg All these TBI people wanting to go fast might as well face the fact that in the long run to get near the HP levels of MPI you will spend and spend.  By the time you finish your mods to exhaust and other issues you might as well not waste your time with TBI upgrades and go MPI.  One ride in a properly tuned MPI quest is all you will need to know im right.  I think the people that think the 2.6 doesnt rev and doesnt make power have never ridden in a good MPI quest.  Something about that torque with the 4 cylinder responsiveness that is scary (not to mention when the boost hits..) ;D so you think it would be more cost effective, and you would yield greater hp gains w/ the magna?  if so, great.  i'm just looking at alternatives and have a great asset here in the local area. thanks for the pics! jeremy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALANFROMPDX Posted September 23, 2004 Report Share Posted September 23, 2004 Jeremy, If you can do it do it. We need all we can get for these cars. Where would we be without the owners of these cars building designing and helping each other. I am looking forward to your intake. -PDX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smog Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 There should be bette designs than the magna do work off of. I like the look of the new hks drag supra intake they fabbed up. Of course thats for drag, but since you are working with fiber it would be easier to produce the circular shape it has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjf Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 I am here to cheer you on. As your friend is tied into the racing scene, he is probably up on all this, but when I run several of the intake runner length calculators that are available on the internet, I get runner lengths of between 13 to 15 inches for our engine, for max torque at 6000 rpm, for the 3rd wave, and assuming a 284 cam. The best length for the 1st and 2nd wave are even longer. So, if someone else is getting a better number from some calculation lets hear it, especially if it is a calculator for a turbo'd engine. I notice that most of the manifolds out there have runner lengths much shorter than what the calculators recommend. Maybe folks are saying, this thing is turbo'd, screw the length, make it an easy fit. Just guessing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dcrasta Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 Yeah man what im saying is Please make a MPI manifold (u can make a TBI later if you had to choose tho please make the MPI!) I only gave the magna pics up cause u said you needed some. EIP Racing makes that cannon intake that looks like something that would be mean in Carbon. But hey The magna is old school I would love to see some new hotness in carbon.. Make it mean man! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eeaston Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 Those lengths are about what I've gotten. The magna is the only 2.6l intake I've seen with runners near that length. (surprise, surprise, Mitsu did their homework) I'll measure mine in the morning, but it seems like it was in the 15-17 inch range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smog Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 If anyone of you ever get to see chads intake in person, I think you would be really impressed. I blew a few loads all over hus bumper when he popped the hood on ihs car lol. He did a lot of research before designing his car. I'd probably be going with his intake if it werent for this 1200 dollar college bill : Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barbercb Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 Hey man I agree a TBI manifold is a waste. Â Wet manifolds suck . - oh really......... I think you should make a TBI manifod as well. The MPI guys have an option. If this is going to be a pro-made manifold really all that would need to be done is create a better runner design. If he has access to a wetflow bench you could create a TBI manifold that has equal flow to each cylinder. If you did that it would give this car alot more life in a stock form. Right now TBI is only .5 seconds behind MPI, a better designed manifold would help close that gap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jinx Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 I can understand some of you guys wanting to stick with the stock TBI based setup, but I believe you'd be better off once you accept its physical limitations. If manufacturers could use a single point injector design effectively, don't you think the bean counters would love to save the money, instead of 'wasting' it on multiport ? Look around... and if that doesn't convince you, try the testimonials of those who have gone from very good running tbi to a well tuned multiport 2.6. No comparison. Is it the intake design ?. A stock intake converted to mpi has gone substantially faster than any tbi car.... pick any turbo. So is it really worth the hassle? Yep, quite a few old school guys have gone well into the 12s on tbi. Then the 'sharper' ones have gone 11.6-11.2s (boost only) on their mpi 2.6 street cars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerastan Posted September 24, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 ok guys. first off, thanks to those that are interested in other options for these cars, and are willing to help out. to those that think it's a wast of time, i totally understand. you have very good reasoning behind your posts. HOWEVER........ my intentions here are this.... (maybe i was unclear): - i would like to make a new intake manifold for 4+ injectors (yes, mpi) that requires much less bench time. you won't have to weld anything to the manifold or take anything off. it would be ready to go. i'm just looking for some good information from those folks who have already spent day after day making the magna work. let's put all of that knowledge to work and get a manifold/fuel setup that is not so labor intensive. John, the guy that offered this up, has some crazy skills guys. If we give him some good info to go w/, we will not be disapointed. I already know that I'll be shelling out the initial costs for the first one, and I'm fine w/ that. For those of you that are interested in a better tb design, i know he'd be down for that as well. hell, i'm sure that would be gravy for him. Now.... I have been out of the starquest "scene" for about a year now. I had a very strong quest and decided it was too much trouble for the time invested. Well, I finally realized that it's not exactly the car that I missed, but the people. I hang w/ the wrx and evo crowd and tried my hand w/ the S13 crowd. None of them are as helpful and laid back as the folks on this board. Where else would a member of the board offer up his weekend to use his truck to take me to Wisconsin (8 hrs away) to get my new Starion, and never bat an eye. It's folks like Richie Rich and all the other great people around here that make these cars so great. I mean come on, I've got a 600 AWHP car that couldn't keep me away from this place!! With all that being said, I really just want to make somthing that we can all be part of desinging. Will it be the be all, end all of the manifolds? Probably not, but i'm sure it will be better than what most of us are running now, and should be free of alot of the normal magna headaches. Peace, Jeremy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siance Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 Well i don't have 800-1200 to spend on a FMS,+cost of the manifold+plumming+tunnig time....I would like have someting i could bolt up and see a huge diff....am i dreaming....???? nope...i know it can happen, someone juts has to do it.. Long live TBI!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artinist Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 as for the magna intake, i can surely tell you that it is a very ineffecient design for a turbo car, especially one with high TQ at the low end, regarless if its performoed ok on some poeples car. thats simply due to other mods and doesnt mean that another intake will not perform better. the best intake for our car is a simple standard intake with short/medium straight runners and a small plenum. just like the ones on the supras. I already have such an intake CNCed from high grade foam ready for the carbon fiber work but the person who started the project doesnt have time to finish it right now. if someone can demonstrate that they can see this to the end, I am willing to make an arrangement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerastan Posted September 24, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 i just spoke w/ the guy that wants to do it. i'll be taking him a normal intake next week so he can come up w/ a design. artinist, please pm me so we can discuss further.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shift1313 Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 i think if you wanna catch some attention you need to dump everything youve seen. magna and stock both are bad. magna is way better. for a torquey beast that doesnt rev high you dont want short runners. that helps with high revving engines. i think for these you need long runners. im not talking 6" i mean really long. I dont mean to dash your dreams but unless you make the manifold cheap i doubt you are gonna sell a ton of them. nothing against you or whatever design you have cause im sure they will look sweet but youve got challenges. are you gonna make a carbon tstat housing? what about coolant ports for the heater core etc. are you gonna do away with the emissions ports and jet valve ports? or include them somehow for you guys who love tbi? You see how many people are running mpi on here and there are a lot that want to do it. i cant honestly see someone spending $$$ on a tbi manifold when the gains arent gonna be great. you kill all your flow by running a wet mani. I would keep it simple, put your plenum down below your runners and have them curve down. keeps it lower, cooler(not that carbon asorbs heat like aluminum) and you would have less runner distance for your IC pipes. just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siance Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 Knowone knows what the performance gains are going to be with either design until it's done and dyno tested......I can prolly count on my hands the guys that are running mpi...all the other starquest owners are TBI.....Don't get me wrong, im not saying TBI is better than the magna, im just syaing i know theres other poeple on a buget like myself.......All the stock intake needs is a better flow design and a bigger TB, and i ganrantee the gains will be huge...HUmmmm carbon fiber TB..... Everyone here has to agree that, if there was an TBI intake manifold w/bigger TB that you could bolt up and see gains of 20 or 30hp instant(which isn't a far reach for proper air and fuel distrabution) for $350 or $450 beans, it would be a killer performance part, and sell like crazy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dcrasta Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 MPI isnt hard once u get over the engine management hump. And thats a hump u gotta get over no matter what u do (TBI modded enough will have an engine management hump too) Unless you want to piggy back a bunch of AFC and FCON devices then your just spending almost as much as you would for MPI ;D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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