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Cam crank timing


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#1 03CL55AMG

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Posted 14 March 2019 - 10:23 AM

This is my second rebuild, after damaging a couple of Pistons on the first rebuild of 10,000 miles. Was getting some of the wiring done at my local high performance shop since I just didn't have time. So they were getting ready to fire it up, we can't get it to Fire and so he called me today and told me that the cam /crank timing is off cuz he's getting spark after top dead center. I did everything like I did on the first rebuild and had no issues then, we don't have enough compression now to fire it only about 60 70 pounds on a brand new motor. Any suggestions. Thanks for the help.
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#2 kev

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Posted 14 March 2019 - 10:50 AM

Is your dissy stabbed correctly?  Sounds like you are off a tooth.

#3 speedyquest

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Posted 14 March 2019 - 10:57 AM

Forgive me if this come off wrong but... if this is a preformance shop why are they calling you up asking questions about basic timing of an engine? Shouldn't they have the knowledge to deal with it?

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#4 tux

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Posted 14 March 2019 - 11:21 AM

Sounds like a low performance shop

#5 03CL55AMG

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Posted 14 March 2019 - 12:54 PM

They deal primarily with Fords and Chevys. The dizzy I thought I had stabbed it in their correct, I brought it to top dead center on a compression stroke, stabbed the dizzy so that the rotor pointed to the number one spark plug on the cap.



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#6 03CL55AMG

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Posted 14 March 2019 - 01:06 PM

So we've got Spark, and we have fuel, but right now the cranking compression is only about 60 or 70 lbs,
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#7 speedyquest

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Posted 14 March 2019 - 01:27 PM

Basic engine timing doesn't have anything to do with who made the engine. The timing on the g54b isn't complicated, its easy to check, and along with that doing both a compression test and leak down test should tell them everything necessary to diagnose your issue. If I've got that understanding as some random dude who doesn't work on cars every day I would hope that the people working at a shop who makes a living doing this would also. That's it I'll leave it alone, its just something to consider man.

As for why its got low compression it could be several things. Poor valve seat fitment, worn valve seals, damaged piston rings, etc etc etc. Double checking the timing, doing a leak down test, and compression test would be appropriate next steps imo.

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#8 03CL55AMG

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Posted 14 March 2019 - 03:05 PM

Thanks speedy...I built the motor...and followed the same care and procedure as last time...and that build ran great till it went lean on me under a WOT pull, so I built this one and had the same machine shop do the work..on the block and the head( they cleaned up the valves and put new guides & seals in, so Kev mentioned that I may be off a tooth on the dizzy..how would that effect the compression...I was very careful installing the rings( as i was last build). so I am thinking that there is a valve partially open...just trying to figure it out, brand new motor that's not running.  the guy did mention that the timing was dead on TDC and not 10 degrees BTDC.
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#9 03CL55AMG

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Posted 14 March 2019 - 09:29 PM

I am also going to check the lifters...I pumped up the oil galleys with oil until it came out of the rocker arms...and then the motor sat for 6 months. Perhaps they are stuck open...and that is why there is only 65 to 70 psi on any cylinder...new rings..seals and guides.
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#10 speedyquest

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Posted 14 March 2019 - 10:20 PM

I hope it's something simple, but I've had collapsed lifters before and had decent compression. Good luck sir

1987 Flatty Starion -- Widebody Conversion -- V-Mount Setup --  JDL Tubular Manifold  --  MX-6 Intake -- MS3-Pro -- AEM FPR  --  ARP head studs -- 3" hood exit exhaust -- Hahn Racecraft 16g --  Tial F38 Wastegate -- Tial Q Bov -- Short route piping -- 5 lug & LSD conversion -- Tubular Front End -- Manual Steering Rack Conversion -- Manual Brake Conversion -- Stack Digital Dash -- AEM UEGO -- D2 coilovers -- full GNT poly bushings & mounts -- four 8" rears -- car lightened significantly...  More to come!


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#11 03CL55AMG

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Posted 15 March 2019 - 07:43 AM

Thanks speedy...I could see collapsed lifters giving a good compression readings( valves closed)...as where stuck open lifters, I believe could hold valves partially open and give poor compression readings...I think. anyway that is an easy check. I will post my findings.
Forged motor, weisco pistons ,3" exhaust, garret 60 cold/ 96 hot turbo, 950/ 1800 injectors , 52mm tb, maft, meth kit.

#12 scott87star

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Posted 15 March 2019 - 11:58 AM

I believe they're telling you that the relationship between the cam and crank isn't correct, setting that has to do with the colored links in the timing chain.  If it's retarded you wouldn't get full cranking pressure and from my experience you need a minimum of 100 psi to have a decent chance of that jug firing.  Isn't that the old "look at the cam dowel plug on the cam gear with the engine at TDC #1, it should be at 11:58"?
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#13 03CL55AMG

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Posted 15 March 2019 - 08:57 PM

Thanks Scott, That is one of the first things I will check...was thinking about that today...I would think that I would have done that...but maybe I did,that makes sence. Since there is low pressure on all cylinders.
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#14 03CL55AMG

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Posted 15 March 2019 - 09:00 PM

That was supposed to be wouldn't have dine that.that is about the only real solid explanation..I think.
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#15 03CL55AMG

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Posted 20 March 2019 - 06:51 PM

So...I hate to even bring this subject up...but I will be checking the timing chain to see if I f-uped that procedure. If I did ( not syncing the dots on the gears and the plated chain links)...could I have bent some rods or damaged pistons...
Forged motor, weisco pistons ,3" exhaust, garret 60 cold/ 96 hot turbo, 950/ 1800 injectors , 52mm tb, maft, meth kit.

#16 speedyquest

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Posted 20 March 2019 - 06:53 PM

I think most likely you'd have just bent valves and put divots in the Piston dome. It's not likely that you did anything drastic to the Piston.

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#17 03CL55AMG

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Posted 21 March 2019 - 09:38 PM

Well I did a compression test today and all is good there...so the shop that did it before had a faulty gauge, I then put #1 cylinder to TDC on a compression stroke, checked the cam gear dowl pin and it is at 11:59...but my painted timing chain link is not on the cam gear dot ( the cam gear dot is at about 3 o.clock and the painted link is at about 9:30. So if I am at TDC on a compression stroke and the cam gear dowl pin is at 11:59...would the crank / cam be synced? or because the painted link is is not on the dot am I not synced...?
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#18 mikec

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Posted 21 March 2019 - 11:01 PM

The plated links won't line up after each turn, or two turns, of the engine.  The length of the chain is why...  it does NOT make a complete loop for two turns of the crankshaft (i.e. all 4 strokes of the pistons).  The plated links are there only for the initial chain installation.  Imagine if the cylinder head and camshaft were ten feet above the crankshaft - it's pretty obvious that both the crank and cam sprockets would make many turns before the chain made one complete cycle.

If the cam's index pin is just head of 12 o'clock when the crank pulley is at 0 deg (i.e. Top Dead Center) then the cam - crank timing is fine.

The distributor timing however is a whole 'nother story.  It can be waaayyy off even with the cam & crank timing perfect since the distributor is inserted after the main timing chain stuff is assembled... i.e. the distributor timing is independent and is determined by how you install the distributor.  As the distributor is installed through the hole in the side of the cylinder head, its gear meshes with the stubby extension shaft in front of the cam sprocket... and as that meshing takes place the distributor shaft will rotate a bit.  Ergo you have to "anticipate" this rotation by pre-setting the distributor shaft the opposite amount.  The little nub at the end of the distributor body (near the gear) should be lined up with a mark on the gear before you insert the distributor into the cyl head.  When done correctly, the nub and gear mark won't be lined up once the distributor is installed... but the rotor WILL be pointing pretty much at the distributor cap's #1 plug wire contact - when the distributor is roughly centered in the adjustment slot too.  If your ignition timing is really late - and the distributor body is rotated to the very end of the adjustment slot - you need to pull the distributor out of the cyl head and re-clock the shaft & gear using that nub.

Also: the index pin that ties the cam sprocket to the camshaft MUST also tie that extension shaft to the sprocket.  All three of those pieces MUST be physically locked together with that metal roll/shear pin.  It's not unheard of for the pin to get shoved backwards as the extension shaft is installed.  When that happens the cam sprocket, cam shaft, and the extension shaft are NOT TIMED TOGETHER nor are all three TIMED TO THE CRANKSHAFT properly.  Can you poke a toothpick or stiff wire through the hole in the extension shaft and have it come out the hole on the cam sprocket?  You should be able to... if not - if the passage is blocked - those three parts are NOT aligned and the index/roll pin is not installed correctly.

mike c.

#19 croquest87

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Posted 22 March 2019 - 04:45 AM

A few years back l had local shop install head gasket along w new cylinder head and new timing kit due to my very busy schedule at work.  I get a call from them that after install car ran for few minutes and boom everything fell apart inside the motor. They claimed that crank gear split causing the dowel pin on timing gear to shear  valves hit the pistons. They filed a claim against Cloyes for the cracked gear and made me wait for over 6 months so l pulled my car out and re built the motor myself which l should have done in a first place. Upon disassembly l quickly realized that they had set timing way off. Eventually they paid me back fraction of money for some of my lost parts after having a strong worded conversation w the manager.Yes vulgar language was used and lots of it.Was happy to have my car up and running regardless. One thing l did not like on new Odessa  cylinder head at the time is that it was supplied w dowel pin  not a roll pin which was also culprit.No shop will ever again work on my car again.Place filed bankruptcy soon after due to bad business practices and lawsuits from many people.  Car is running strong to this day since.

Glad to see you have compression   you can figure out the rest per post above its pretty easy  just steps that's all.

Edited by croquest87, 22 March 2019 - 05:05 AM.


#20 03CL55AMG

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Posted 22 March 2019 - 07:26 AM

Thanks Mikec and croquest....I was telling myself that if I was at TDC on a compression stoke and the crank pin was at 11:59...the cam/crank was synced, butt the chain link thing had me wondering, now I know. I will re-stab the distributor and check the pin...I should be ready to go if all that checks out...really appreciate everybody's comments, thanks.
Forged motor, weisco pistons ,3" exhaust, garret 60 cold/ 96 hot turbo, 950/ 1800 injectors , 52mm tb, maft, meth kit.




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